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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/9/2006 9:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | | No. I'll tell you what's crazy. It's our waking up on MONDAY morning talking about the END OF THE WORLD. Now THATS CRAZY!
By the way, when I asked what does inhabiting the earth have to do with maximizing little images, I'm not asking, "What does becoming more like God via more via sociality have to do with it" I'm asking what does "spreading out" (inhabiting the earth) have to do with it?
Meph Man: I'm confused by the bolded statement. Are you saying that loving God with all one's heart, mind, and strength should be seen as a helpful activity for how we contextualize the use of our time and energy?
Or are you saying that loving God with all one's heart, mind, and strength is the ultimate goal for which we strategize our time and energy?
Wondering.
Brandon: Well, with you I go along with the second, all I'm saying is that for most evangelicals and for my "crisis of faith" issue is that it is more like the first. I suppose I keep asking myself, "What does it REALLY MEAN to love God?" If it means the second of the two Great Commandments, then essentially is **our** evangelical Christianity any different than "the brotherhood of man" Christianity? I'm not saying I go for this brotherhood of man stuff, but man, sometimes it sure seems like that's all it is. Like, what would loving God look like without works?
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
I'm asking what does "spreading out" (inhabiting the earth) have to do with it?
The most glorious plan ever, Brandon.
God wanted to have a state of affairs where there would be a HIGH LEVEL of diverse human experience (via culture, language, etc)...
(as high a diversity as freely choosing human beings could bring about)
that would be UNIFIED under the headship of Christ THROUGH their oneness in the Holy Spirit to the glory of the Father...
And God would have MORE BEAUTIFUL EXPERIENCE via God's church in God's contingent expression.
This is what the Revelation passage speaks about with the crowd that no one could number from ALL backgrounds...ALL sharing the same adoration for God.
God has a "bride" that glorifies God in the HIGHEST WAY POSSIBLE: seeking UNION with God.
God does "Tower of Babel" and then Pentecost.
It's absolutely masterful.
God is so smart, yo.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Mark 7: That Which Defiles
1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles. [a])
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?"
6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.'
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions."
9 And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe [c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,' [d] and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' [e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 -16 Nothing outside you can defile you by going into you. Rather, it is what comes out of you that defiles you."
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters you from the outside can defile you? 19 For it doesn't go into your heart but into your stomach, and then out of your body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: "What comes out of you is what defiles you. 21 For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile you."
This is why Jesus said...even to Martha over and against Mary...
STOP focusing on trying to SERVE me.
Just BE with me!!!
Serving Jesus doesn't necessarily heal the inner life. Mat 7:25 show us that! It's BEING WITH Jesus that transforms! It's that we place ourselves in a POSTURE to know Jesus and BE KNOWN of him!!
In our western, "can-do" culture this is VERY hard for us to get.
The works WILL come...because God is a missional God.
But we've got to get our priorities straight!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 10:18:07 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I'll say it like this.
Since 1997, I've been trying to serve God. And God has been faithful. God has used me in spite of my craziness and compulsions...to God's glory. But I still wasn't totally FREE. Yes, I was justified by Christ's sacrifice...but my sanctification process was a snail's pace...because of all of my despair and idolatry. I became God's SLAVE when God always wanted me to be his LOVER. (Remember the THEISTIC BOOTLICKER???)
It's only been at THIS POINT that I see that. And once I made the decision to only seek him...not for a blessing, not for another mission, not for another calling, not for another person to help...but to JUST SEEK HIM for no other reason but the beauty that He is...
I am being transformed by the GRACE of God more and more every day.
Lifelong relationship problems with my family are being healed.
Things that THERAPISTS couldn't help me with are being healed.
I'm living in MUCH more freedom than I ever did in seminary...or prior ministry experience.
I'm a living witness for what happens when someone takes SK's "the purity of heart is to will ONE THING" seriously...and line that up with loving God with all your heart and soul.
This is the EXISTENTIAL BACKING (from my experience) that I have for what I believe is a consistent biblical truth.
Seek first God's Kingdom and ALL will be added unto afterwards.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 10:28:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph Man: Unlike God, WE try to relate lovingly to others in HOPES that our inner lives will be affected. That's the wrong order.
Creation exploded from who God IS. Humanly speaking, a person who is enthralled with God will NATURALLY do loving works...because that is who they are.
Brandon: I've been taught this all my Christian life. I'm in agreement with it. But seriously man, I see non-Christians love better than us. Maybe they're living better than their belief system. But is that all we can say? So what? We're not living up to what our belief system says. So, if this is what "sets us a part?" I'm not seeing it...at least most of the time. ESSENTIALLY what difference does this make? And you know what I'm talking about with all our spiels on the Inquistions and whatnot.
See, when God can give non-Christians the ability to love (as he does with Christians)? It's not about WORKING. It's not about asking, "If" or "How" loving God will help us relate to others. It's about asking, "How loving God essentially makes ANY difference in loving others." To say that we can't do this without loving God, seems kinda screwed up to me as we are WIRED FOR LOVE for each other (whether we recognize whether this is God or not. Personally, I believe this "wiring" is the way **GOD** wired us).
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
See, when God can give non-Christians the ability to love (as he does with Christians)? It's not about WORKING. It's not about asking, "If" or "How" loving God will help us relate to others. It's about asking, "How loving God essentially makes ANY difference in loving others." To say that we can't do this without loving God, seems kinda screwed up to me as we are WIRED FOR LOVE for each other (whether we recognize whether this is God or not. Personally, I believe this "wiring" is the way **GOD** wired us).
Think about it, Brandon. Think about the conversation you've been having about the Tower of Babel.
YES, we are wired for interpersonal and intrapersonal relationality among human beings...but...
if that human-human interelationality is NOT GROUNDED on the human-God relationship, you will begin to see trouble!
God's breakup of humanity DEMONSTRATES that God doesn't just like ANY kind of human unity and relationality. But only that in which (following SK here) "God is the MIDDLE TERM"
If the way that we relate to each other, regardless of HOW NICE or BENEVOLENT it may seem, does not come a heart that is in love with God...
WE ARE STILL IN DESPAIR
For SK reading "Works of Love" and "Sickness Unto Death"
Think about it, Brandon. If you have a WHOLE BUILDING full of people who are nice and caring to each other...promoting health and wellness, generally...but NONE of those people are doing those actions from a CENTER of loving God with all of their hearts...isn't there still something fundamentally wrong there...especially given what we KNOW the telos is for humanity?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 10:44:40 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Starkman: Meph, the ONLY possible reason in my mind for God to keep this ol planet rockin' and a rollin' (in view of the ever present possibility of serious destruction on this planet) is because of what you said; God is looking to maximize His glory by stretching this thing out as long as it possibly can be stretched out (to get "one more soul" before it this world simply cannot withstand anymore and destruction comes)…
Tom: But it seems that the more he prolongs it the MORE, the GREATER the percentage of, people stuff hell full. How much stuffing has to fall on the floor before we admit the Turkey is full? Like I said to Jeff, what’s the point? At t1 there are 4 billion people bound for the rehabilitative anguish of hell. God waits one more day for “one more soul” to escape that? It’s ludicrous. For every one that escapes it another 1,000 enter the ranks of the damned.
Mephi: God wanted to have a state of affairs where there would be a HIGH LEVEL of diverse human experience (via culture, language, etc)...(as high a diversity as freely choosing human beings could bring about) that would be UNIFIED under the headship of Christ THROUGH their oneness in the Holy Spirit to the glory of the Father...
Tom: I say the world is pretty f*k (sorry) up and that the longer God waits the more f*d up (sorry again; I’m just so depressed by the state the world is in) it’s gonna get and the more people are gonna tumble headlong like dumb sheep over the side of the mountain into the gapping maw of hell. Come on, how much diversity does he want? The world is pretty diverse. How packed full must the world become? It’s pretty populated, pretty much subdued (and polluted, and ruined, and abused, etc.). Is there no amount of horror and pain that tips the scales so that God says “Let’s do this. It’s over.” Mephi thinks so—the probability of an extinction-level event. Until that threat is imminent, God lets it go on. But what if going on just increases (as it surely does) the percentage of people who have to make heaven THROUGH the anguish of hell? Maybe that's what God really wants--the greatest number of people in heaven who came by way of hell, so that those who choose God in THIS life do more to compromise the intensity of God's reflected glory than do those who choose God in hell.
Well, if we gotta come up with some reason I guess “extinction level event” is as good as any. Truth is, I don’t think we have any idea of what combination of factors God’s looking for that’ll signal the time to commence the end. It gnaws at me like a tick burying itself in my brain.
Signed,
Alyosh
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/9/2006 10:46:33 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
Seriously, do you see what I'm saying Meph Man? Take your "testimony." One could say, "All you're doing is tacking God on to what is THE important issue and that is REALLY loving others."
What? Are you serious?
Let me try to be more clear.
I am saying this:
The ONE THING...the SOLE THING that each individual person should be concerned with in their lives is growing into loving unity with God in Christ.
Not love of neighbor.
Not fixing of society.
Not doing the right thing.
The ONLY THING that we should be concerned about is seeking God FOR GODSELF with all of our hearts, minds, and strength.
And whatever God does from that, God does.
Is this more clear? Because this is what I'm trying to say.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:52 AM (GMT -6) | | |
A milkman ties up ten wonderfully beautiful girls and lines them up against their school room wall and shoots them execution style. And more of the same WILL happen. And much worse WILL continue to fill the earth. Cancer GROWS. The longer God waits the more it’ll grow. The whole friggin world is cancerous with this. And God’s holding out for more diversity? Let another language develop so I have 20,001 languages sounding my praise in heaven instead of 20,000 languages?
It just stresses my structures beyond their breaking point.
Alyosh
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/9/2006 10:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
I feel your anguish and pain for the situation of the world. It's completely understandable. It wears on you...like a bad wound over time. You KNOW I've been there, man.
All I'm asking is that you keep things in perspective. This whole human epoch is SO SMALL compared to the eternity of God.
And this brief little stint on this planet...is NOTHING compared to the billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of years that we will all spend in the presence of God eternally.
IN THE END, EVERY PERSON THAT HAS EVER EXISTED WILL, SOMEDAY, EXPERIENCE THE PERFECT LOVE OF GOD...FOR ETERNITY!
Does this relativize nothing?
I know it's hard to do sometimes, but we've got to try to focus on that. This is the joy set before US...that we are able to bear the cross of this current crazy age! My love, heart, and prayers are with you, Tom. I love you. 
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (MephEternal) : 10/9/2006 10:55:00 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/9/2006 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm uncontrollably overwhelmed by this. People in this cafe are staring at me.
Just let it end. If the end came RIGHT NOW it wouldn't be too soon. But apparently God thinks so?
Let today be the end. Oh please.
And get this. In John's vision, the martyrs IN HEAVEN, in the grip of the beatific vision, STILL WONDER what the hell God is waiting for? IN HIS PRESENCE they cry "What are you waiting for? When will this end?" They don't even get it.
Arghghghghghghghghghghghghghghhghgh!
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 10/9/2006 11:03:24 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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