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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 8:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | Wanna see something? Watch this...
"My God, My God! Why have you forsaken me?"
--Jesus, God the Logos.
Kallistos Ware "The Orthodox Way" God as Man p.78
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A second glimpse is given us at the Crucifixion, when Christ cries our with a loud voice. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). Once again, full weight should be given to these words. Here is the extreme point of Christ's desolation, when he feels abandoned not only by men but by God. We cannot begin to explain how it is possible for one who is himself the living God to lose awareness of the divine presence. But this at least is evident. In Christ's Passion there is no play-acting, nothing is done for outward show. Each word from the Cross means what it says. And it the cry "My God, my God..." is to signify anything at all, it must mean that at this moment Jesus is truly experiencing the spiritual death of separation from God. Not only does he shed his blood for us, but for our sakes he accepts even the loss of God.
"He descended into hell" (Apostles Creed). Does this mean merely that Christ went to preach to the departed spirits during the interval between Great Friday evening and Easter morning (see 1 Pet. 3:19)? Surely it has also a deeper sense. Hell is a point not in space but in the soul. It is the place where God is not. (And yet God is everywhere!) If Christ truly "descended into hell", that means he descended into the depths of the absence of God. Totally, unreservedly, he identifies himself with all man's anguish and alienation. He assumed it unto himself, and by assuming it he healed it. There was no other way he could heal it, except by making it his own.
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Now...my thoughts...
There is a particular sense in which human beings ARE God (Divine energies, Divine Center [Logos], eschatological essence, etc.)
There is a particular sense in which human beings are WITH God (emergent hypostatic perspectives that have the capacity to self-identify [a form of self-relationship] themselves being personally distinct from God.)
Doesn't this go some way to explain HOW the God as a human hypostatic perspective was able to experience himself as PERSONALLY DISTINCT (actually feeling ABANDONMENT) from God?
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
Post Edited ("I Am Spirit") : 12/15/2007 8:18:35 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I Am Spirit" said...
How about this, Tom? Corey? Jeff? Bruce? Anyone?
"In the beginning was the Logos...and the Logos was WITH God and the Logos WAS God..."
There is a particular sense in which human beings ARE God (Divine energies, Divine Center [Logos], eschatological essence, etc.)
There is a particular sense in which human beings are WITH God (emergent hypostatic perspectives that have the capacity to self-identify [a form of self-relationship] themselves being personally distinct from God.)
I really think that we should at least be able to agree on this, right?
Take this with the humour it's intended with, but...
We are proportionally slow in following you to your own slowness to find a form for your thoughts in real language that we use in real life. WHICH OF MY STUDENTS WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS?
But, that's fine. This provides a forum for you to both work on those ideas AND to work simultaneously on the craft of trying to find the words.
Good luck.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I Am Spirit" said...
Wanna see something? Watch this...
"My God, My God! Why have you forsaken me?"
--Jesus, God the Logos.
---------------------------------------------------------
Now...my thoughts...
Doesn't this go some way to explain HOW the God as a human hypostatic perspective was able to experience himself as PERSONALLY DISTINCT (actually feeling ABANDONMENT) from God?
Yep. I think so.
And in saying that I think that you have clarified the extent and the mode of what these ideas CAN and CAN'T mean: We aren't God in a pantheistic way, but rather Christ was the incarnate Word, and so by the incarnation renewed man's fellowship with God --- which can be seen in the anallogy of the sword and the fire......Christ stuck the sword back in the fire after having first pulled it out all the way so that the hilt was no longer blocking the whole thing's progress of being stuck in. (Or in a much more tangental anallogy, Christ allowed his heart to be absolutely stopped in order that he could reestablish the pace and rythmn.)
Now... If you like that, D., then ferret out what Corey might be HEARING that you DON'T mean.
Thanks.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | POW:
We are proportionally slow in following you to your own slowness to find a form for your thoughts in real language that we use in real life. WHICH OF MY STUDENTS WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS?
Ok, ok.
Human beings are as personally distinct and/or separate from God the Logos as they believe they are. We have this option as "self-disposing" beings. We can choose to self-identify with Love (God, the Logos, IS Love)...or with "ourselves", our own self-created self-perceptions and projections. As a person thinks, so are they. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives IN me, that's the extent it will occur. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives AS me, that's the extent to which it will occur. To the other side, to the extent that "I" believe the Logos does NOT live in me, that's to the extent to which it will occur. "Be it unto you according to your faith" kinda stuff...
Is that easier?
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
Post Edited ("I Am Spirit") : 12/15/2007 9:40:45 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
And in saying that I think that you have clarified the extent and the mode of what these ideas CAN and CAN'T mean: We aren't God in a pantheistic way, but rather Christ was the incarnate Word, and so by the incarnation renewed man's fellowship with God --- which can be seen in the anallogy of the sword and the fire......Christ stuck the sword back in the fire after having first pulled it out all the way so that the hilt was no longer blocking the whole thing's progress of being stuck in. (Or in a much more tangental anallogy, Christ allowed his heart to be absolutely stopped in order that he could reestablish the pace and rythmn.)
Haaayell, yeah, B. 
As a matter of fact, Christ renewed CREATION'S true fellowship with God!
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:39 AM (GMT -6) | | "I Am Spirit" said...
Moreover, Jesus is "homoousias" with all human beings through his full human nature. (Chacedonian Creed) Therefore, we cannot say that Jesus had a DIFFERENT "logos" with respect to his human becoming than any of the rest of human nature.
PoW: Bingo.
"I Am Spirit" said...Bruce didn't say that we weren't images of God. Bruce said that there is only ONE "Father's Image" (the Logos) and we are images of THAT. But this still means that we are image of God... because the Father's Image IS God. See that?
PoW: And we ussually find the statement of "image" in the context also of a statement of "likeness." We are created to be IN the image of God, but/and we are intended to be in the "likeness" (be imaging God's character in a way that is not warped) of God. (changing the anallogy for a moment, we are to "let our lights shine" and not hide them under a basket.) We can, in Christ, have "the image restored" -- which is the mirror washed and unbent. But we have to work WITH THE SPIRIT to also "become reflectors of" the divine nature. What results is not our own work but the fruit of the Spirit bearing in us -- a Trinitarian event that is of the Father, by the Spirit and in/through the Son, and in us.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
PoW: And we ussually find the statement of "image" in the context also of a statement of "likeness." We are created to be IN the image of God, but/and we are intended to be in the "likeness" (be imaging God's character in a way that is not warped) of God. (changing the anallogy for a moment, we are to "let our lights shine" and not hide them under a basket.) We can, in Christ, have "the image restored" -- which is the mirror washed and unbent. But we have to work WITH THE SPIRIT to also "become reflectors of" the divine nature. What results is not our own work but the fruit of the Spirit bearing in us -- a Trinitarian event that is of the Father, by the Spirit and in/through the Son, and in us.
Epicletic life.
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:43 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I Am Spirit" said...
Human beings are as personally distinct and/or separate from God the Logos as they believe they are. We have this option as "self-disposing" beings. We can choose to self-identify with Love (God, the Logos, IS Love)...or with "ourselves", our own self-created self-perceptions and projections. As a person thinks, so are they. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives IN me, that's the extent it will occur. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives AS me, that's the extent to which it will occur. To the other side, to the extent that "I" believe the Logos does NOT live in me, that's to the extent to which it will occur. "Be it unto you according to your faith" kinda stuff...
Is that easier?
But like any statement of belief you also need the "anathemas", which are the road bariers to what that DOES NOT mean. (It can sould like we are part of a pool of energy that has no Creator-God as its source............and you could say the same thing.)
(We shouldn't 'dis' anathemas.  Ooops, I mean we should not UNDERESTEMATE THE UTILITY OF anathemas.)
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/15/2007 9:51:51 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:44 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm not dissing anathemas. At least, I'm not trying to...
What anathemas should I say?
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | |
"I Am Spirit" said...
I'm not dissing anathemas. At least, I'm not trying to...
What anathemas should I say?
Ooops, I mean we should not UNDERESTIMATE THE UTILITY OF anathemas.
And to anser the question, I'd say again that anything that sounds like personless pool of energy -- "hinduistic" -- would be helpful.
But the real issue is what does COREY need. (Btw, you have been putting some traffic barriers of your own just fine. I just don't spot them always on my first read through, nor do well when I'm posting at the same time.)
.
I really like the notion of "saying and un-saying to a possitive effect" like Ratzinger expressed it.
(And just ask Corey what the worst possible reading could be.)
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/15/2007 10:06:34 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | | The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof...
Scarcity and Abundance in a One-Storey Universe
Posted Friday, December 14, 2007
In this talk Fr. Stephen continues with the imagery of the One-Storey Universe, but uses it to challenge our sense of finitude and scarcity and instead boldly proclaims that the risen Christ has raised us to a Kingdom where we are not bound by limits, but by the endless abundance of His love.
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/freeman/
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/15/2007 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
Scarcity and Abundance in a One-Storey Universe
Posted Friday, December 14, 2007
That was wonderful, Bruce. Thanks.
As I listened to this...I immediately thought about the loaves and the fishes...
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When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food."
Jesus replied, "They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat."
"We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," they answered.
"Bring them here to me," he said. And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
However this happened, we see the abundance of the Kingdom in demonstration.
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 12:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Bruce:
And just ask Corey what the worst possible reading could be.
Good idea, B. Say, Corey! Jeff, Tom and whoever else too. Holla...
Human beings are as personally distinct and/or separate from God the Logos as they believe they are. We have this option as "self-disposing" beings. We can choose to self-identify with Love (God, the Logos, IS Love)...or with "ourselves", our own self-created self-perceptions and projections. As a person thinks, so are they. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives IN me, that's the extent it will occur. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives AS me, that's the extent to which it will occur. To the other side, to the extent that "I" believe the Logos does NOT live in me, that's to the extent to which it will occur. "Be it unto you according to your faith" kinda stuff.
Worst possible reading?
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 1:25 PM (GMT -6) | | We (human beings) are BOTH "as personally distinct and/or separate from God the Logos as [we] believe (and act as) [we] are, AND *not_un-distinct* in our creational form as individual persons. These two are both true, and can sometimes be a seeming-paradox, but are not contradictory.
When I applied to teach art at a Dutch-reformed college I ran up against language-use issues while responding to faculty-candidate questions. Growing up Swedish-baptist, and being the product of Twin-Cities public schools, and being trained for Minnesota teacher's license and practice, many of the expressions and several key conceptual categories made me prone to cause red-flags to a school closely affiliated with Reformed, Neo-Kuyperian philosophy and praxis. Words like "individuated" and "actualized", while true and useful within the context of what I as a Christian teacher actually was doing in my classroom or studio setting. But they represented to the factulty of that college and its board of trustees some of the same issues that they had to un-teach in their congregations and un-inculcate in their students, if for no other reason that the mass-culture was making rugged-individualists and church-shoppers out of good little blonde-haired Dutch children from hard-working unselfish farm-bred stock!
We ARE individual persons; but to be a person means to TRANSCEND our individual boundaries.
Back to my story, it was interesting to tap the sociology professor's brain on the availability -- or not -- of alternative wording and parallel conceptual models that I could use in making my application; they did not see the problem, but as they were bastions of defense for reformed perspective already, them using the words and categories did not raise flags. But for me, being an ethnic minority in Iowa (blonde, but suspect as Swedish-Minnesotan) I had to be careful and express and explain myself carefully and well!
B.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/15/2007 1:43 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | | Here's a sermon that contains the quote by Gregory of Nyssa below.
"Know to what extent the Creator has honored you above all creation. The sky is not an image of God, nor is the moon, nor the sun, nor the beauty of the stars, nor anything of what can be seen in creation. You alone have been made the image of the Reality that transcends all understanding, the likeness of imperishable beauty, the imprint of true divinity, the recipient of beatitude, the seal of the true light. When you turn to him you become that which he is himself...There is nothing so great among beings that it can be compared with your greatness. God is able to measure the whole heaven with his span. The earth and the sea are enclosed in the hollow of his hand. And although he is so great and holds all creation in the palm of his hand, you are able to hold him, he dwells in you and moves within you without constraint, for he has said, ‘I will live and move among them' (2 Corinthians 6.16)."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 2:05 PM (GMT -6) | | "I will live and move among them."
Yes.
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Know to what extent the Creator has honored you
above the rest of creation. The sky is not an Image
of God, nor is the moon, nor the sun, nor the beauty
of the stars, nor anything of what can be seen in
creation. You alone have been made the image of
the Reality that transcends all understanding, the
likeness of imperishable beauty, the imprint of true
divinity, the recipient of beatitude, the seal of the
true light. When you turn to him you become that
which he is himself….Nothing in creation can be
compared with your greatness. God is able to
measure the whole heaven with his span. The earth
and sea are enclosed in the hollow of his hand. And
although he is so great and holds all creation in the
palm of his hand, you are able to hold him, he
dwells in you and moves within you without constraint,
for he has said, “I will live and move among
them.”
—St. Gregory of Nyssa
(quoted in a church newsletter at
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One Love
Registered Member
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 2:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Joan Osbourne
One of Us
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epow4VXhnW0
What if God was one of us...
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 12/15/2007 7:22 PM (GMT -6) | |
Bruce:
And just ask Corey what the worst possible reading could be.
Good idea, B. Say, Corey! Jeff, Tom and whoever else too. Holla...
Human beings are as personally distinct and/or separate from God the Logos as they believe they are. We have this option as "self-disposing" beings. We can choose to self-identify with Love (God, the Logos, IS Love)...or with "ourselves", our own self-created self-perceptions and projections. As a person thinks, so are they. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives IN me, that's the extent it will occur. To the extent that "I" believe the Logos lives AS me, that's the extent to which it will occur. To the other side, to the extent that "I" believe the Logos does NOT live in me, that's to the extent to which it will occur. "Be it unto you according to your faith" kinda stuff.
Worst possible reading? Huh? I'm not sure I like this! Just leave it to ol' Corey to give the worst possible reading. Sweet.
I'm sure there's a worse possible reading than this, but there seems to be a confusion of ontology and epistemology at play here. It's not at all clear to me how one's beliefs could have any determinative effect on the actuality of their distinction from God. Couldn't one believe they are not distinct from God, but actually they are? One's self-identification could very well be a deception. This gives way too much weight to one's subjective state.
(You do know me well enough, don't you, to assume that I do understand the importance of subjective appropriation, right? I am an SK devotee after all!) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/15/2007 9:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
It's not at all clear to me how one's beliefs could have any determinative effect on the actuality of their distinction from God.
If the EO idea of "epiclesis" (in the Eucharist) means anything, it means that willed belief (and one's "subjective aim" in that willed belief) affects objective actuality on a deep level. Spiritual transformation of the elements into the Real Presence of Christ, by way of the believer's faith. This at base holds the belief that the actuality of the "distinction from God" the bread and wine possessed pre-epicletic moment was determinatively affected by the faith of the believers present: the bread and wine became divine reality. This has to inform what we think the interaction of belief and reality is, right?
Oh, but THAT's right...some people believe that the EO 's identification of the eucharist elements with Christ's real Body and Blood is possibly a deception...
"For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.
"For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."
Post Edited ("I Am Spirit") : 12/15/2007 8:17:10 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/15/2007 9:15 PM (GMT -6) | |
"I Am Spirit" said...
...the bread and wine possessed pre-epicletic moment was determinatively affected by the faith of the believers present: the bread and wine became divine reality. This has to inform what we think the interaction of belief and reality is, right?
I don't know if that is what the EO would say. "Determined by the faith of the believers?" My memory is of an emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit, and not on the words spoken (the latin "Hoc est enim corpus meum" became the expression "hocus pocus.") Maybe something could be said of the faith of the believer, and maybe something should. But did anyone else in history make faith to be "the" crutial thing -- Luther? Or someone else -- Calvin? (I don't remember!)
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