 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Hayell, Yeah! | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/14/2008 6:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | I knew it...
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 6:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, dawg. We're just gonna have to "take the plunge"...give all of ourselves over to God in utter, unconditionally loving devotion, trusting Him in all things...and see what he does with that. That's probably the only thing that's going to solve this difference.
So, let's just do that, I guess. 
Lord, REVEAL yourself to us! We seek You! 
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 6:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
One can shout as loudly as one likes (quoting Loder and Eagan and a host of others) that this is not so, call it theosis or whatever you wish, but until you actually offers an example that points to the creature's creating something freely, you can't say the creature is a creative, personal entity. We'll, at least I'll not agree to call it that (which of course matters to nobody on the larger scale of things!).
Tom to the all those "others"...
Can't Tell Me Nothin'
Kanye West
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY2Wv4zaGIU
Excuse me...Was you sayin' somethin' ?
Unh-uh. You can't tell me NOTHIN' !
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/14/2008 7:36 AM (GMT -6) | | D: I knew it.
T: But why should that be a surprise Bro? I've explicitly affirm as much, and you've explicitly made the opposite claim. With just a few changes in your description of me, I can express your view:
“Deified human hearts are functionally IDENTICAL to Christ-the-Logos….”
“You want there to be pretty much NO self-determination of the deified human's ego over its own expressions of love.”
“…you believe that in theosis we will have UTTER AND EXHAUSTIVE directional, determining influence by God on what loving things we choose to do.”
“You feel that God would have no reason for willing the creature’s creative self-expression...”
“Anything LESS "determining" than this, you're gonna bristle at…”
I’ve always understood your view of the end to which God intends humankind to be utter and exhaustive determinism of creation by God.
I’ve always denied this.
There may be no difference between us in methodology Bro. We’re just committed to different starting points. Your little conversation with Jesus there doesn’t really capture the ethos and vision of my view, because you want to accentuate what you perceive to be possible abuses of my view. Hey, that’s cool. But I can do that with your view too. And where’s that get us? Nowhere.
D: Let's further say that this person wants to create some kind of pottery this week to honor God. Basically, this person's ego-activity would determine pretty much every dimension of how the pottery would come out...without God doing anything but empowering the creative action.
T: Well, you are presupposing that the person is “creating” some kind of pottery to honor God. She’s either going to ‘create’ or not. Which is it? If yes, then she has to ‘create’. And she doesn’t ‘create’ if God determines her every move. You cannot dispute this D. This is the problem with your analogy. You don’t even believe creatures “create for the honor of God.” There’s no room for that in your view.
D: But this is what God wants, right? God would want us to use our purified hearts (self-directing all of our own thoughts, feelings, and bodily actions) to create for ourselves...not just being "channels of God's divine will" as it were. THAT'S THE LAST THING GOD WOULD WANT FOR THE DEIFIED HUMAN HEART ON EARTH! No, we "lean upon our own understanding" for everything...because we can trust our own understandings now. God might give us some "themes" to work with, but not much more beyond that. God would not be determining the creation itself (in it's particular "coming forth" ) at all, as God would (per your thought, Tom) only be satisfied if the pottery were the complete self-expression of the deified person's ego-activity...and NOT a self-expression of God's activity.
T: It’s like nothing I’ve said over the past year has even been read or understood.
OF COURSE God can determine aspects of creation, even our thoughts or inclinations, especially if we’re full of the Spirit and we wish God to lead us in this manner in contexts that require it. Let’s try to exercise SOME appreciation for grades of determination and for the differences in contexts (present from eschatological). Of course there’s a lot about our present existence that God’s determines. The question is whether God determines that which NEEDS to be determined by us IF the resulting relationship is to be interpersonal, loving, and free.
The difference between you and me is that I make allowances for the conflicted nature of the present evil age, the limitation of loving options inherent to such a context, our unfinished characters, and the ignorance we suffer from. Taken together, I say it’s entirely understandable that God will choose to “take the wheel” for the time being so to speak (though he doesn’t always do that now either). But in heaven, in the complete absence of the conflict that defines the present evil age, with characters and natures solidified in love, with nothing but loving options to consider, with no threat of evil and no conflict, there will be no reason for such determination of specifics. God ‘can’ clearly let go. And given the SORT of God God is, I can’t imagine a single reason why God would NOT let go. In fact, it contradicts the entire picture I have of God to suppose that where there are equally loving options available, a creative God of love would actually want us NOT to creatively determine ourselves within the scope of those possibilities. It blows my mind that you think God would be interested in deciding which possible future gets actualized.
• I view such determinations by God now as a temporary mode arrangement necessitated by our fallen circumstances to be discarded once we are glorified and inherit the fullness of God’s purposes for us.
• You view such determinism as inherent to God’s purposes for glorified human existence.
• I see God creating persons who, like God, self-determine creatively.
• You see God creating instruments which God determines creatively.
You can object all you want, but I’m not going to concede (as if it matters anyhow!) your calling your view of glorified human existence either ‘interpersonal’ or ‘creative’ since its utter determinism eradicates both these attributes.
Different dreams. Different visions.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Human believing heart speaking:
So, Jesus, what would you do in this situation?
Jesus responding:
Well, there's a million equally loving things that "I" might do in your situation. BUT IT'S NOT MY SITUATION...IT'S YOURS! You are NOT me, dear beloved...and I am not you. I'm a totally distinct person from you...and as such, your situation is not "mine" to choose within. YOU are free (and healed enough) to decide how YOU want to determine your thoughts, feelings, and bodily actions in whatever loving means of expression the situation allows for the Father's glory. So, YOU use YOUR purified vision and heart...and YOU choose what to do. I'll trust you and empower you to do what YOU to creatively decide what YOU want. Do what you believe and/or feel in your deified heart...and that will be fine!
-------------------------------
Just thinking. Isn't this exactly what the self-reflective autonomous human ego that...
1) desires making it's own independent way in creativity
2) seeks divine immortality and sanction in making it's own way creatively and
3) sees it's own creative uniqueness functionally separate from God
would WANT Jesus to say? Live and let live.
The LAST THING this human ego would want is to being caught up in some "divine drama" (Willard) where their own willpower is "barely noticed" (Again, Willard) in light of the Spirit's guiding/determing influence.
Is this not the formula for existential despair? Corey?
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/14/2008 7:45:38 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 8:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
“Deified human hearts are functionally IDENTICAL to Christ-the-Logos….”
“You want there to be pretty much NO self-determination of the deified human's ego over its own expressions of love.”
“…you believe that in theosis we will have UTTER AND EXHAUSTIVE directional, determining influence by God on what loving things we choose to do.”
“You feel that God would have no reason for willing the creature’s creative self-expression...”
“Anything LESS "determining" than this, you're gonna bristle at…”
Now who hasn't been listening?
I've said over and over again that my view DOES NOT MANDATE exhaustive determination by God. I told you what Greg said. He's on my side with this.
Come on, dawg. Come correct on that. 
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 8:06 AM (GMT -6) | | It seems like you are much more concerned with humanity being self-reflectively autonomous in creative expression...than for humanity to be "temples" of Divine Presence who TRANSFIGURE Creation bringing it into "ultimate union" with itself and God...through humanity's own union with God in Christ.
Yep. We have different visions.
Heh.
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/14/2008 8:09:48 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/14/2008 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Just thinking. Isn't this exactly what the self-reflective autonomous human ego that...
1) desires making it's own independent way in creativity
2) seeks divine immortality and sanction in making it's own way creatively and
3) sees it's own creative uniqueness functionally separate from God
would WANT Jesus to say? Live and let live.
T: No. The autonomous human ego left to the sort of independence you describe (which isn't my view), doesn't want to hear Jesus say this; it wants to hang Jesus on the cross and then have him go to hell.
The only view of yours I'm discussing, D, is that approach which, contrary to my own view, sees God as determining all creaturely expression. If you don't believe this, then please describe various creative expressions you imagine creatures will be left free by God to determine for themselves. Just supply that list for me if you please. ;o)
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 8:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
The only view of yours I'm discussing, D, is that approach which, contrary to my own view, sees God as determining all creaturely expression. If you don't believe this, then please describe various creative expressions you imagine creatures will be left free by God to determine for themselves. Just supply that list for me if you please. ;o)
I guess that's the difference between your perspective and mine. I'm not trying to think about what and how much stuff I'm going to be "left free" to do by God as God divinizes me. I'm not concerned. However much or however little is HIS business. (Again, my view does NOT mandate exhaustive determination) My full concentration is on saying "Holy Spirit of Christ, Come!" every moment, seeing what the Father is doing right now, and join Him in it...fully believing that it's God's Grace that allows me to do all I'm doing. And doing that every present moment while I'm doing whatever I'm doing.
Isn't that what we're supposed to do?
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/14/2008 8:25:40 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I'm concerned with interpersonal, loving God-human relations.
As I am. Again, I believe that, in Christ, the human "heart" has a SPOUSAL (INTERPERSONAL, LOVING) relationship with the One Triune God. I believe in the interpersonal exchange of life between the Uncreated Christ-the-Logos (The Bridegroom) and the created faith-filled, Grace-dependent, believing human heart. (Christ's Bride)
But how come you don't talk about the transfiguration of the universe or the "indwelling" of Christ in the human heart by the Spirit?
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/14/2008 8:32:38 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/14/2008 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm waiting for the day, D, when you adopt the online ID of "God." You've already said that your deepest subjective identity is just God.
Go for it. 
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 1:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I'm waiting for the day, D, when you adopt the online ID of "God." You've already said that your deepest subjective identity is just God.
"I-am-in-I-Am" is about as close as I feel I need to identify myself with the Great "I AM"
"I, not I, but God (Christ-the-Logos)"
And this goes right along with being...
"Divine Progeny"
From dictionary.com
prog·e·ny (prŏj'ə-nē) n. pl. progeny or prog·e·nies
One born of, begotten by, or derived from another; an offspring or a descendant.
Offspring or descendants considered as a group. A result of creative effort; a product.
[Middle English progeni, from Old French progenie, from Latin prōgeniēs, from prōgignere, to beget; see progenitor.]
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/14/2008 1:21:08 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 1:35 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Why declare myself God...when that wasn't the attitude of Jesus?
----------------------------
TNIV
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
In your relationships with one another, have the same attitude of mind Christ Jesus had:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a human being,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
-----------------------------------
If anything, I want the "Emptiness of Christ" reproduced in me by the Holy Spirit of Christ. 
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/14/2008 1:40:41 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Some random thoughts.
John 10.
Jesus was claiming to be "divine progeny" of God the Father (God's Son)...implicitly saying that, being in the image of God, human beings had the potential to be "divine progeny" of the Father in, through, and by the Holy Spirit (which as Israel's Messiah, he was "anointed" with!) And he was claiming to live in loving unity with the Father through that same Spirit. ("I and the Father are one!")
And people started hating, thinking he was being arrogant, trying to equate himself with God. Wanting to assert himself as God. Gonna kill the man...after all the healings and everything. Sheesh. Gotta love the fruit of years of self-condemnation...
And though he could have done that easy, that's not what he was doing. He wasn't trying to use "equality with God" as "something to be used to his own advantage." That's what we see with the Temptations in the Wilderness. Temptations about him demonstrating his Eternal, Divine Sonship as God's Son...without having to die a criminal's death to do it. But he didn't do the route of the divine Caesar. Nope. He was NOT trying to big himself up as God. That would actually be missing the point. In everything he did, he was completely "self-giving" to the Father in loving trust, obedience and faith...epitomizing being divinely strengthened in human weakness. He was asserting his self-reflective divine sonship (divine progeny)...his lived HUMAN experience of "knowing" the Father. Moreover, He was humble and meek of heart. Again, constantly self-emptying before the Father in the Spirit...and by that, his "single eye" was the Father and his Will. He always devoted everything to the Father. And by the love of the Father, he loved those who hated him...even unto death!
So he was not GRASPING at divinity. Nope not at all. Exactly the opposite. He epitomized divine (The Father giving up the Incarnate Son) AND human (the Incarnate Son giving up himself for his "friends" and the whole world) self-giving. He just showed his love for the Father, which made him who he was. "I, not I, but the Father"
Basically, Jesus shows us that, by God's Spirit of Christ, we can love the Father (and his progeny...we human beings) unconditionally, with "single eye" and, in turn, loving the world as the Father loves the world: self-sacrificially. It frees us from the world...to live in God's World. Loving God, self, and neighbor unconditionally assures "oneness" with God as his "divine progeny." In Christ, we will not be ashamed to call ourselves "sons" of God. Not ashamed to look someone dead in the face and say..."I am God's son. I am divine progeny."
Crazy or what?
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/14/2008 7:20:55 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/14/2008 7:18 PM (GMT -6) | | For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers (and sisters.)
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/15/2008 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, Tom. You know how you can look back on things and laugh...things that weren't so funny at the time? Well...remember this idea you and I both heard somewhere?
"You can't call yourself 'God's son." That's sounds arrogant to me. Why don't you just call yourself a 'child of God' or something like that? Why call yourself 'God's son?' "
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/15/2008 7:14:33 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
| 43 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:15 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|