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One Love
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   Posted 6/23/2008 1:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Harvey Egan, S.J.
 
 
The following excerpt is from the Introduction..."What Is Christian Mysticism."  (Pages xvi - xx) I don't know if I've seen it stated so darn WELL!!  Google Books didn't have the whole thing...and I HAD to have this for reading.  I have this now (and I'm so glad that I do!) so I typed it out. 
 
PLEASE check out the rest of the book HERE as you can.  ALL KINDS of mystics...East AND West!! biggrin
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

What is Christian Mysticism?

 

Christian mysticism is a way of life that involves the perfect fulfillment of loving God, neighbor, all God’s creation, and oneself.  It is the fundamental human process through which one becomes fully authentic by responding throughout life to a God who gives himself unconditionally as love and as the ultimate destiny of every person.  It is an ordered movement toward ever higher levels of reality by which the self awakens to, is purified and illuminated by, and is eventually fully united with the God of love.

 

Under God’s palpable initiative and direction, mystics fall in love with God—at times abruptly, at times gradually.  Through God’s special activity, they realize that God is in love with them, and therefore we are all, at least secretly, in love with God and each other.  The explicit awareness of God’s burning love at the very roots of their being causes mystics an immense longing that allows them no peace until they are irrevocably united to God and transformed into God’s very own life.

 

Awakened by God to holiness, mystics are sensitized to their own sinfulness and vileness.  Past sins arise and torture them in a purifying way.  Like the physical eye, their spirit’s eye becomes extremely sensitive to a speck of dust.  They may even experience themselves as a “lump of sin,” wholly undeserving of God’s mercy, forgiveness, and love.  Yet this holy love purifies them by removing almost all traces of disorder and sin.

 

Mystics also experience the vast distance between themselves and their Creator.  Steeped in their own terrifying nothingness, they wonder why they are not simply annihilated in the presence of this all-powerful and all-consuming God.  Perhaps such experiences give rise to Meister Eckhart’s unorthodox statement: “All creatures are a pure nothing; I do not say they are a bit or that that they are something, but that they are a pure nothing.”

 

At this stage, mystics love God to some degree, but their quest is more self-seeking than God-seeking.  They taste something of God’s goodness and love, but the consciousness of their own sinfulness, creaturehood, and seemingly unbridgeable separation from God predominates.  Hence, authentic mystics feel a deep need of penance and purification.  In addition to long house of prayer, one finds in the lives of most great mystics “holy follies,” or great penances to atone for past sins or for the sins of the world.

 

As they are purged of sensuality and self-love, mystics grow in virtue and in ability to surrender to healing and transforming love.  Having stilled the surface mind, they are better able to turn inward, find interior stillness, forget the self, and attend to god’s loving self-communication.  A deep, joyful sense of being united with God permeates their consciousness.

 

Gradually, the living flame of God’s love is experienced more as illumination than as purgation.  It instills a sacramental expansion of consciousness, that is, a loving knowledge that enables mystics to find God in all things and all things in God.  Now they have less need to forsake the world to find God.  Yet no matter how intimate the mystics’ relationship to God may seem, the concomitant experience of separation remains.  They may be betrothed to God, but they are not yet married.

 

When the illuminative aspect of mysticism dominates, mystics discover a deeper sense of theism enhanced, transformed self and God’s intimacy.  Visions, locutions, and a variety of secondary phenomena often occur.  Some phenomena come from psychological dysfunction or even the demonic.  Others, however, are the psychosomatic reverberations of God’s self-communication taking hold of the entire person.  God communicates himself to the mystic’s spirit, soul, psyche, emotions, and body through these well-known mystical experiences to enhance the mystic’s life and encourage even deeper surrender to and communion with God.

 

The illuminative aspect of God’s mystical self-communication has its dark and purgative side, too.  During the “dark night of the soul,” emotional boredom, aridity, ennui, even near-despair are common.  The mystic has an acute sense of sin.  God’s absence predominates, having, it seems, justifiably abandoned the contemplative.  Immense longing for God, incredible loneliness, the feeling of utter impotence and isolation take over.  Exterior trials in social, political and ecclesiastical situations often accompany great interior trials.

 

Finally, the mystic realizes that the earlier phases of ascent were trite.  The haunting presence of past sins, of the distance from God, being unable to love as much as one is loved are concerns that become almost overpowering.  Mystics speak of this phase as a cruel spiritual death, like “going down to hell alive” (St. John of the Cross).  Nonetheless, mystical death is God’s gift to the mystic, the dark side of God’s loving, transforming self-communication.  Mystical purgation, especially in this radical form, is totally God’s doing.  Human efforts cannot bring it about.

 

Although God, through great consolations, prepares the mystic beforehand for this mystical death, they mystic must possess the requisite psychological makeup to endure this stage.  Mysticism in the strict sense requires extraordinary moral and psychological tenacity, as well as heroic concentration.  The authentic mystics are definitely the pioneers, heroes, and geniuses of the spiritual life.  There may be something in common between a Bach, Beethoven, or Mozart and any lover of music, but few music aficionados are musical geniuses.  This analogy likewise holds in the spiritual life.

 

The unitive life is the last stage of mystical ascent.  The mystic becomes as closely united to God through God’s love as God is unified to his own being by nature.  Mystically married to God, the mystic becomes “God by participation.”  Nonetheless, this union remains differentiated, that is, God and the mystic become one while remaining distinctly two.  The mystic’s person does not dissolve into God.  In fact, the more deeply united to God the mystic becomes, the more the mystic’s individuality is confirmed and enhanced.

 

Mystical marriage bestows the conscious sharing in God’s own life and power and almost complete self-forgetfulness.  The mystic now seeks only God’s will and honor and desires to serve God totally.  Although external trials may continue, absolutely nothing can touch the peace and freedom at the deepest core of the mystic’s being.  The transformed mystic desires greatly to suffer, but in no way does this suffering disturb the peace that flows from the ever present, explicit awareness of living God’s very own life.  In fact, the only thing separating the mystic from the beatific vision is this life itself.

 

The mystic is experientially united to a love that communicates itself to all persons and to all things.  Therefore, the more deeply the mystic experiences union with God, the more deeply union with God’s creation is experienced.  Transformed by and into Love itself, the mystic becomes creative, totally self-giving, radically concerned about others—in short, spiritually fecund.

 

Hence, mystics heal in their own persons and through apostolic service the fragmentation found in so much of human life.  They become an even deeper part of the great process of life.  Wholly in God, yet totally in the world, they experience both absolute peace and a holy anxiety to serve God and God’s world.

 

The mystics insist, however, that the mystical life is more than heroic virtue or service to the world.  These are the outward expressions of their union with God, the sacramental expression of their mystical lives.  They are socially and often politically active because they seek God and God alone.  Only this—not “experiences,” not a transformed personality, not serving the world—gives the mystical life its ultimate value.

 

Nonetheless, the mystics are the most impressive servants of humanity the world has ever seen.  These deified, christified, spirit-filled persons are the amplifiers of every person’s more hidden life of faith, hope, and love.  Their lives help us bear the interior whispers and see the faint flickers of divine truth and love in ourselves and others.  The Christian mystics point the way to fully authentic human life by illustrating what it means to be a human being, what life means: eternal union (which begins here) with the God of love.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

I truly can't say it any better!  cheers


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 6/23/2008 2:21:16 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 6/23/2008 2:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Loder had this down too...reprise...
 
Loder.   The Transforming Moment.  106-107.  Talking about "I, not I, but Christ" idea...
 
Here the distinction between the "I" in its integrity as the spiritual self and Christ as the Holy One is all important. Christ is still the one to whom the process belongs, but the consequence for the subject is not absorption; rather, it is a personal interrelatedness with Christ.  The self relates to Christ in such a way that the "world" it composes is recognizably created in response to his having "gone before." It is Christ's World that the self creates out of the freedom that Christ's grace has made possible.  Thus, while the self, world, void, and the Holy are reconstellated by his nature, the self is freed within that very context---the context of his nature--to choose for or against him.  That one can actually choose to manifest in his or her own particularity Christ's own nature--a nature that preserves all the dimensions of human being in their interdependence--this is the impossible Christian possibility.  Yet, absorption in Christ is a contradiction in terms, because "in Christ" one is never absorbed but is heightened in personal particularity and uniqueness. 
 
The issue here is not this-worldliness versus other-worldliness but simply the nature of the relationship between the self and the Holy into which tranformation leads.  In Jesus Christ, the two sides of the self's relationship to the Holy are revealed.  In Jesus' intimate relationship to the Father, who he called Abba ( "Papa" ), he epitomized the transcendent movement of the self; through this relationship, he did only what he saw the Father doing.  In effect, he composed the "world" after the Father and in accordance with the Father's composition of the World.  In this, Jesus revealed what it means to be truly human.
 
On the other hand, by doing what the Father was doing, he revealed the nature of God as one who loves the World sacrificially.  Thus for the self, the consequence of transformation at the hands of the Mediating Christ is to be led into conflict with all other "worlds" and into a sacrifical love for the World which the Father composes and sustains.  The self, therefore, while being thoroughly grounded in Christ's nature, must remain both free and distinct from Christ so that love can be truly self-giving.  If love is not given consciously and freely and as an expression of one's own being, then either the sacrifice is puppetlike and means nothing, or it aggravates self-alienation and heightens the dizziness of freedom.
 
****************************************
 
Another quote. Page 167.
 
As indicated in the previous chapter, ego transformation should be understood not as destruction to the ego, but as decisive recentering of the personality around a transcendental reality that points to the invisible God.  The net effect actually enhances ego functioning, because the ego has less need to control or limit perceptions or understandings of the self, world, or others.  The ego-as-center constricts its vision lest the underlying existential negation come into view and the centripetal force of nostalgia for the true center draw it back into nothingness.  However, once the center is invested with God's Presence, the ego's anguish at absence and abandonment is dissipated, and its defensive energies can be poured into its compentencies.  As described earlier in reference to "mundane ecstasy", decentering the ego liberates and empowers its functioning even though and precisely because it is no longer the presumed center of the personality.

*************************************

 

Loder.  Knight's Move.  273
 
Beyond vision, in the fourth and final phase of the journey of intensification, is the numinous, imageless passage into the absolute unity of all things. Here no-thingness (cf. Eckhart's Ohne bild) is experienced as more real that than the reality of the ordinary state, even after self-consciousness returns to phase 1. Although imageless, its impact most often leaves the after-image of radiant white light, so vivid it cannot be described except perhaps by a kind of via negativa. For this phase there is no language, only silence--favete linguis (hold your tongue), says Kierkegaard. For this phase there is still differentiated self-consciousness (Tom!), but beyond that only a reaction of awe as before the Holy who both fascinates and overpowers at the same time. This corresponds to the vision of God in Augustine, Hildegaard, Teresa (of Avila), Eckhart, and several others.
 
The neurological foundation of this experience is the profoundly significant capacity of the brain to present to consciousness not only an ordered content but the very way in which that content is itself presented: i.e., the order itself.  In this case, it is the whole or totality in itself that is communicated.  Clearly this is not a reductive account, but only a claim that the human organism is made so as to support and entertain an encounter with an imageless sense of the Absolute Unity of Being.  The numinous impact of this is, of course, like that of the encounter with the Holy in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.  If mythic vision and cosmic consciousness were the consequences of the third phase, then here the consequence is that one may now see the cosmos from a standpoint beyond it, while still within it. 
 
The benevolent detachment from the world which is the consequence of this experience has the effect of making the world becomes a matter of choice rather than one of defensive survival.  All that is needed for ultimate survival has been given and far more, so engagement with the world are a matter of decision in what can only be called a state of blessedness.
 
 


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Post Edited (Shekinah) : 6/23/2008 2:17:25 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 6/23/2008 2:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Egan talks about "The Mysticism of Jesus Christ" in the section "Mysticism in the New Testament"

Straight fire.

Given enough time, I may type it out later on this week... ;-)


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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One Love
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   Posted 6/23/2008 2:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From other thread...

Tom:
I think you’re more interested in ‘oneness’ per se and then in something that’s interpersonal. When I agree that God wants to be as “one” with us as possible, I mean “as interpersonally one as possible.”

My response from other thread...

All I'm saying, Tom...is that God has made a way for humanity to be God's Spouse and Christ's Body such that a human being can be "one flesh", "one spirit", and "one mind" with Christ. I want to take that to the FURTHEST EXTENT POSSIBLE where there is UNION WITHOUT ABSORPTION.


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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One Love
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   Posted 6/24/2008 7:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My Heart Belongs To You
Jodeci

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh5h2hYMjbo

"Anything...
Anything...
Anything you want...
I'll do it for you..."


*****************************

Never Too Much
Luther Vandross

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWMn-LW3rCA

Loving God too much just isn't possible...

"Oh, my love...
A million days in your arms...is never too much.
I just don't want to stop..."


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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Sahid
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   Posted 6/25/2008 1:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't think Luther Vandross has much to do with mysticism. But I don't really follow him. Maybe I'm wrong. I think that quote better exemplifies emotionalism, a main corruption of mysticism when taken too far. My understanding of mysticism involves a centering of the self so that emotion is not removed but acknowledged as entirely distinct from self. This can lead to enhanced emotions, usually because truth (which is emotionally striking) is more easily seen after clearing the clutter out of the way. That's not to say that I disagree with the lyrics quoted. But these strike me as typical artistic attempts at hyperbole on the already infinite which are more about summoning feeling than mysticism.

I am wary of any mysticism which comes close to a mere spiritual thrill-seeking - looking for the best (or trying to get on all) the best spiritual rides. While emotion is not to be demonized, mystics also tend to emphasize truth, poverty, service, prayer, and the absence of God. I see a lot of mysticism that looks more like Joel Olsteen than Francis of Assisi.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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One Love
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   Posted 6/25/2008 8:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sahid,

What do you think about Egan's description. He seems to be quite credible in terms of his understanding of Christian mystical life. I'd love to know what you think about his perspective.


Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

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One Love
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   Posted 8/24/2008 1:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
EXCELLENT MATERIAL!  biggrin
 
I'd love your thoughts on this, Bruce.  (If you've already read this before, so much the better...)
 cheers


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/24/2008 1:48:55 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/24/2008 2:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A quote...page 96

It is not difficult to see that the mystical state transcends one's creaturely condition, through our participation in the divine. God is nearer to man that man is to himself; and life in the divine is more supernaturally natural to man than life simply in the human. In one who is baptized, Christ is an inner reality. This is the antinomian experience of nothingness and or absolute being. Although the gap of the ontological abyss is not eliminated, Being overcomes it by His presence: "By nature, I am a man, and god by grace."  A being, coming from nothingness, lives the conditions of the divine life. God transcends His own transcendence: "He appears suddenly, and without confusion, becomes one with me...My hands are those of an unhappy creature; I move my hand, and my hand is all Christ" (St. Symeon the New Theologian). Through such a descent--the parousia of Christ in the soul--the soul is formed in His image: "There is God, there are the angels, there life and the kingdom, there light, there the treasures of grace, there are all things." [From note: St. Macarius] This is what John of Damascus calls "the return of what is contrary to nature to what is proper to it."

Hmmm...ther parousia of Christ-the-Logos in the faith-filled, human soul...kinda like...

     

or...

"Secondly, it follows from this that Christ as Creator-Logos is to be envisaged, not as on the outside, but as on the inside of everything. It is a frequent fault of religious writers that they speak of the created universe as if it were an artifact of a Maker Who has, so to speak, produced it from without. God the Creator becomes the celestial Clock-maker Who sets the cosmic process in motion, winding up the clock, but then leaving it to continue ticking on its own. This will not do. It is important to avoid such images as the divine architect, builder or engineer, and to speak rather in terms of indwelling (without thereby excluding the dimension of divine transcendence). Creation is not something upon which God acts from the outside, but something through which he expresses Himself from within. Transcendent, He is also immanent; above and beyond creation, He is also its true inwardness, its 'within.' "

Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia

----------------------------------------------

Meister Eckhart's wonderful...

Relation of the Soul to God
The unqualified Deity, the Trinity (birth of the Son or of the Eternal Word), and the creation of the world are to him three immediate moments, which follow each other in conceptual, not temporal sequence. All creatures have part in the divine essence; but this is true of the soul in a higher degree. In the irrational creature there is something of God; but in the soul, God is divine (230, 26; 2,31, 4). Though God speaks his word in all creatures, only rational creatures can preserve it (479, 19). In other words, in the soul, where he has his resting-place, God is subjective, while in the rest of creation he is merely objective. The
soul is an image of God, in so far as its chief powers, memory, reason, and will, answer to the divine persons (319, 1). This accords with the view of Augustine. Just as there is the absolute Deity, which is superior to the persons of the Godhead, so in the soul there is something that is superior to its own powers. This is the innermost background of the soul, which Eckhart frequently calls a "spark," or "little spark." In its real nature this basis of the soul is one with the Deity (66, 2). When Eckhart sometimes speaks of it as uncreated (286, 16; 311, 6), and then again as created, this does not involve a contradiction.

While, on the one hand, it rests eternally in the Deity; on the other it entered into the temporal existence of the soul, i.e., it was made or created through grace. But it is not in this original unity with God that the soul finds its perfection and bliss. As it has a subjective being, it must turn to God, in order that the essential principle implanted in it may be truly realized. It is not enough that it was made by God; God must come and be in it. But this has taken place without hindrance only in the human soul of Christ (67, 12). For all other souls sin is an obstacle.


Sin and redemption
But wherein does sin consist? Not in the finiteness, which is never removed from the soul (3S7, 3; 500, 1 1), but in the direction of the will toward the finite and its pleasure therein (476, 19; 674, 17). The possibility of sin, however, is based in finiteness, taken together with the free will of the creature. If it is the destiny of the soul to be the resting-place of God, then the direction of the will toward the finite makes this impossible; and it is this that constitutes sin. (Imago's Note: Love of the Father and Love of the world are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! )Redemption, therefore, can take place only when the creature makes room in his soul for the abstract experience and work of God; and the condition for that is the turning away from the finite. For God is ever ready to work in the soul, provided he is not hindered and the soul is susceptible to his influence (27, 25; 283, 23; 33, 29; 479, 31). The inner separation from everything casual, sensual, earthly and the yielding to the work of God in the heart, that is the seclusion or tranquillity of which Eckhart speaks again and again. For him this is the basis of all piety. But what is it that God accomplishes in the soul? The birth of the Son. As the soul is an image of the Deity, if it is to fulfill its destiny, then that process by which the deity develops into the three persons must take place in it. In the soul, the Father procreates the Son (44, 28; 175, 15-20; 479, 10; 13, 12). This takes place during the life of the soul in time; and, too, not merely at a particular moment, but rather continuously and repeatedly. This is not merely a copy or analogon of that inner divine process, but is in truth that very process itself, by which it becomes, through grace, what the Son of God is by nature (433, 32; 382, 7; 377, 17). From this view of Eckhart's follow a number of the most striking statements in which the soul is made to share in the attributes and works of God, including the creation (119, 28-40; 267, 4; 283, 37-284, 7). However, according to Eckhart, a complete fusion of the soul with the Deity never takes place (387, 3). He also opposes the doctrine of Apocatastasis (65, 20; 402, 34; 470, 22).


*****************************

"As Meister Eckhart teaches, "He who abides always in a present now, in him does God beget his Son without ceasing."
Kallistos Ware, Orthodox Way, 115


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/24/2008 6:09:46 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/24/2008 2:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Another...

Evdokimov quoting St. Issac of Syria...

"The sign of having reached perfection is this: if a man were to be condemned ten times a day to be burned alive for loving his neighbors, and yet not to be content with this."

Wow.

But then again look at the passion that Paul had for his people being saved...

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—  I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.  For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,  the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.  Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!  Amen.

Yep.  Sounds about right to me.  Fits the bill with Paul, at least...


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/24/2008 2:25:05 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/24/2008 2:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
THIS.

STUFF.

IS.

SUPER.

DUPER.

REAL.

Y'ALL!


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 8/24/2008 2:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Alexei V. Nesteruk
Light from the East: Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition
Page 28
"Detachment from Nature and the Love of Nature"

----------------------------------------

Though fascinated by the natural world and appreciating its great beauty, the Fathers clearly understood that if the mind were to be distracted by the puzzles of nature and to consider them as ends in themselves, then the knowledge of nature would itself become an obstacle in trying to know God. Thus a tension was created between the appreciation of nature and the danger of being trapped by its investigation. On the one hand, the natural world is accepted and affirmed, while, on the other, it is renounced as having no meaning without its spiritual ground. The necessity to rise above nature in order to find God was always experienced as the difficulty of being detached from a natural world that at the same time was highly appreciated.

In the contemplation of the logoi of creation (Maximus), the Greek Fathers found an ingenious way of resolving this tension, freeing themselves from the demands of nature, on the one hand, while enjoying nature, on the other. They never experienced any fear of nature, which was the creation of a God "who loves mankind."
Their detachment from the material world provided a paradoxical freedom to treat this world in a way that never subverted their spiritual vision of reality, that is, their faith. The secret of the Greek Fathers' freedom to enjoy nature was their detachment from it. Their spiritual vision of nature freed them to love and appreciate nature without condemning its created origin and without fearing its demands, for the natural world, like all of creation, is good because everything done by God through his Word (Logos) is good.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/24/2008 6:14:03 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/24/2008 3:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Yo, Tom.  I think THIS makes sense with the ONENESS fetish I be havin'!

Evdokimov. Pages 97-98.

The Soul transcends the senses, abandons the conceptual mode, and rises above every familiar signpost, outside every image and representation. The multiplicity of knowledge (gnosis) gives way to what is "one," the simple, the uncompounded. The life of the soul as the image and mirror of God, becomes the life of the soul as the dwelling-place of God. What lies at the heart of the mystical ascent is the direct, Presence-filled experience which turns the soul towards the Kingdom: "If it is the peculiar power of wisdom to know the truth of the things that are, no one will have acquired the gift of wisdom to perfection, if such knowledge does not include the things to come" (St Gregory of Nyssa). "A spiritual man of the end-times, " St. Issac says, "receives the grace that is appropriate to this." This is the iconographic vision of the "eternal Liturgy".

Friggin' EXACTLY.biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

----------------------------

 

Loder.  Knight's Move.  273.  Talking about the "Absolute Unity of Being"
 
Beyond vision, in the fourth and final phase of the journey of intensification, is the numinous, imageless passage into the absolute unity of all things. Here no-thingness (cf. Eckhart's Ohne bild) is experienced as more real that than the reality of the ordinary state, even after self-consciousness returns to phase 1. Although imageless, its impact most often leaves the after-image of radiant white light, so vivid it cannot be described except perhaps by a kind of via negativa. For this phase there is no language, only silence--favete linguis (hold your tongue), says Kierkegaard. For this phase there is still differentiated self-consciousness (Tom!), but beyond that only a reaction of awe as before the Holy who both fascinates and overpowers at the same time. This corresponds to the vision of God in Augustine, Hildegaard, Teresa (of Avila), Eckhart, and several others.
 
The neurological foundation of this experience is the profoundly significant capacity of the brain to present to consciousness not only an ordered content but the very way in which that content is itself presented: i.e., the order itself.  In this case, it is the whole or totality in itself that is communicated.  Clearly this is not a reductive account, but only a claim that the human organism is made so as to support and entertain an encounter with an imageless sense of the Absolute Unity of Being.  The numinous impact of this is, of course, like that of the encounter with the Holy in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.  If mythic vision and cosmic consciousness were the consequences of the third phase, then here the consequence is that one may now see the cosmos from a standpoint beyond it, while still within it. 
 
The benevolent detachment from the world which is the consequence of this experience has the effect of making the world becomes a matter of choice rather than one of defensive survival.  All that is needed for ultimate survival has been given and far more, so engagement with the world are a matter of decision in what can only be called a state of blessedness.
 
 



God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/24/2008 6:15:46 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/24/2008 6:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Which book by Evdokimov?


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/24/2008 7:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bruce:
Which book by Evdokimov?

Woman and the Salvation of the World: A Christian Anthropology on the Charisms of Women

The Google pages have been posted above...


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/24/2008 7:33:42 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/25/2008 6:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All of this reminds me of some of my favorite songs of all time. I've loved Prince all my life (Guess I was destined to come to Minneapolis) and this are two of my favorites. I used to listen to these song over and over when I was still a teenager.  I felt like I was asking the questions myself. Like I was groping for something.
Hmmmm...

Prince
The Question of U
http://www.imeem.com/thepixilateddoctor/video/r1OHOEgX/prince_prince_the_question_of_u_video_music_video/

So what is the answer
2 the question of U?
What do I look 4?
What shall I do?
Which way do I turn
when I'm feeling lost?
If I sell my soul,
now what will it cost?
Must I become naked
no image at all?
Shall I remain upright...
or get down and crawl?
All of the questions in my life will be answered
When I decide
which road 2 choose
What is the answer 2...the question of U?

********************************************

Prince
Under the Cherry Moon

http://www.imeem.com/cafelutsa/music/Dnjk-4H6/prince_under_the_cherry_moon/


How can I stand 2 stay where I am?
Poor butterfly who don't understand
Why can't I fly away in a special sky?
If I don't find my destiny soon
I'll die in your arms under the cherry moon

I want 2 live life 2 the ultimate high
Maybe I'll die young like heroes die
Maybe I'll kiss U some wild special way
If nobody kills me or thrills me soon
I'll die in your arms under the cherry moon

Lovers like us, dear, are born 2 die
If they don't find us, what will we do?
I guess we'll make love under the cherry moon
I'll die in your arms under the cherry moon.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/25/2008 6:48:34 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/26/2008 5:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A MUST READ.

Alexei Nesteruk
Light from the East: Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthdox Tradition
Ch. 3: What Makes Theology Unique Among Sciences--The Patristic Vision versus Modern Understanding
"The Inevitability of Mysticism"
Pages 44-48

Some quotes by Nesteruk...

"...the eastern tradition has never made a sharp distinction between mysticism and theology; between personal experience of the divine mysteries and the dogma affirmed by the Church...Far from being mutually opposed, theology and mysticism support and complete each other. One is impossible without the other. If the mystical experience is a personal working out of the content of the common faith, theology is an expression, for the profit of all, of that which can be experienced by everyone...There is, therefore, no Christian mysticism without theology; but above all, there is no theology without mysticism. Mysticism is...the perfecting and crown of all theology: as theology par excellence.
Vladimir Lossky

*****************************

"Just as mysticism divorced from theology becomes subjective and heretical, so theology when it is not mystical, degenerates into an arid scholasticism, 'academic' in the bad sense of the word."
Kallistos Ware

*****************************

Nesteruk himself...

"If teaching in words is possible in principle, how then can we teach (as we do with different university subjects) the experience of ecclesial life, the experience of knowing God through personal participation? This probably can be done through learning about and teaching the experience of saints, who are, according to Gregory Palamas, the only true theologians and who must be trusted. Not everyone can be a theologian, not everyone can teach theology, and theology cannot be taught to everyone, every subject. The trust in saints assumes two things: asceticism and education. A person who learns theology must be educated, tested, and involved in purification."

ESSENTIAL.  biggrin

Mini Hip-Hop Break...tha REALNESS (1min50secs)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/26/2008 6:45:24 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/26/2008 11:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm loving this quote...

"Just as mysticism divorced from theology becomes subjective and heretical, so theology when it is not mystical, degenerates into an arid scholasticism, 'academic' in the bad sense of the word."
Kallistos Ware

Hey, Tom.  Do you remember like almost a year ago when I told you about how I discussed some of my new views with a trusted fellow minister friend and asked them to pray on some of my theological alterations I had been proposing being true...only to hear said this person STOP THE CONVERSATION RIGHT THERE and  say...

"Now, look here.  When it comes to theological ideas and concepts, I have no problem talking it over and thinking about it with you.   But I'm not going to sit here and promise you that I'm going to pray on it.  I can't guarantee I'm going to do that.  I'm not going to take concerted effort to pray about these concepts you're bringing, but I will think about them."

Refusing to pray about theology.  Yeah.

Remember that, Tom?

This kind of thinking is more prevalent in Christianity than BOTH of us could even imagine, homie.  For real...

Lord Christ, have mercy upon us. shocked


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/26/2008 11:23:24 AM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 8/26/2008 12:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It all sounds good D. I liked the online Endikimov stuff.

But to the extent that one tries to insist that the sublime experience of unity with God entails the metaphysical claims you make regarding freedom, I'll disagree with the explanation. But I don't think experiencing God requires such an explanation. So I'm cool. I take from these guys what I can comfortably fit with my own sense of God's purposes for us and move on.

T
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One Love
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   Posted 8/26/2008 1:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Cool enough. ;-)

Have your way, Holy Spirit!


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/26/2008 4:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Stay safe out east, Tom.


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 10/3/2008 8:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Selah.

Hey, girl. I've been waitin' on you to comment on this thread. Holla!

;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 10/3/2008 8:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One more thing for you, Selah. I thought I just had...

Is it possible for there to be a perpetual and perichoretic "sharing of minds" between the Divine Mind/Presence and the individual human mind (Keith Ward, Pascal's Fire) in such a bi-polar assymetrical relationally unified way...that it could eventually get to a point where when said human mind thought, emoted, or acted, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to separate that thought, feeling, and action from the Divine Presence/Divine Mind's thought, feeling, and action?
 
Over time, wouldn't it be harder and harder to tell when the human mind "ends" and the Divine mind "begins"...especially if the human mind is being tranformed into a created analogy of the Uncreated Divine mind, by the Uncreated Spirit of God?  

In other words, is THIS what Paul was talking about with the ideas of "putting on Christ", taking on the "mind of Christ", "taking every thought captive to Christ"...and, of course the, "I, not I, but Christ" identity Paul took on?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 10/3/2008 8:42:37 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 10/4/2008 8:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, Tom!!

I'd like you to respond to the above too. The Keith Ward idea...

He talks about perpetual "sharing" between the human mind and the Divine Mind in a union of love.  Basically, we "share" in God's Mind and divine reality and God's works in and through us to "share" in our human experience. This seems to ground his idea of deification.

Also, I'd like to think about if this idea can be linked with the "two minds" idea of Christ.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 10/4/2008 8:54:08 AM (GMT-5)

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