Brandon: Here we have charities doing charitable work and they ask for government funding. That is not the same as your local welfare office down the street. I hope you can see the difference.
Jeff: Yes I do see the difference and totally agree that it's better, as you do. That doesn't mean government can't do better in the ways I mentioned though.

Brandon: Well of course GOVERNMENT can do it in better ways. But the point I’m making is not to remove government altogether which is the opposite of what you are saying where it should be total voluntary charity. In the history of America, there have been two basic approaches to poverty. One is the “Christian-charity” approach (your position) and the other is “social-justice perspective” which is what I basically outline above. Both are found in scripture. But what’s interesting is that simple solutions to poverty such as total voluntary charity show a profound ignorance of poverty for e.g. urban poverty and rural poverty have similarities and differences but the differences are such that the differences are that rural areas tend to have limited opportunity structures--the means by which people can advance and move out of poverty. Differences such that these limited opportunities tend to increase rural poverty.

Brandon: What I said was that you think that if the economy is more robust via less taxation, regulation, etc, then people will be more willing to give to charities or give themselves. Again, I didn’t say that you said the “markets will solve all the problems.” But saying what you are saying (having a robust economy will increase the likelihood of charity) is tantamount to believing that people will give to charities or as individuals themselves just because the economy is better. And I’m saying that I don’t believe that. Scripture’s whole warning against social injustice is when there was positive economic expansion! It under estimates the pervasiveness of exploitive powers in the structures of society. See the point?

Jeff: Which scriptures are you talking about? Specifically, which scriptures say that the state is to compel charity? I'm not aware of any. Obviously exploitation is bad. People wronging me is bad. But I don't have the right to avenge myself. And why do you believe people won't be more charitable when they have more disposable income? I think Corey has already implied he would on this very thread. As for the exploitive powers in society, government IS one such power. There's no getting rid of them totally. There's only the attempt to find a balance most conducive to civility consistent with those freedoms that are necessary to robust human life.

Brandon: Well, I kinda laid out why people won’t be more charitable when they have more disposable income. Actually, I didn’t even say THAT. There may be an increase of giving but this doesn’t mean that government is not needed. Think about it. Exploitive power is very much tied to material possessions--wealth and property. Thus, when it comes to exploitive power, it is not always the case that giving will be ideally exemplified by those with wealth and property but rather it will be used to exploit the powerless. Sometimes that power is owned by the “stranger,” as I said. So, in order for defensive power to defeat exploitive power sometimes what is needed is intervening power. Again, saying that if we have deregulation and less taxes translates into total voluntary charity UNDERSTATES the need for government. Christians who speak simplistically about poverty and welfare don’t realize the gravity of the issue, because they don’t get how pervasive exploitive power is in the structures of society. What’s funny, is that for all the talk I’ve heard on these boards about the evils of capitalism and it’s effect on our lives personally, e.g. how capitalism effects our view of love, now all of a sudden it seems like its not such a bad thing after all! But what if what is required for the welfare of the poor, may not offer much if any profit to its sellers? Right? Of course government can be exploitive, but you don’t respond to a point about a robust economy not translating into more giving by pointing to weaknesses in other institutions!? That’s sounds childish Jeff. Like two kids arguing.

You: Deregulation and less taxes, etc will enable others to give more.

Me: In scripture, in the face of economic expansion the prophets made their clarion calls for justice. This is a major contrast in scripture!

You: Well, look at government! That doesn’t mean that GOVERNMENT isn’t exploitive! Therefore, lets have total voluntary charity.

Huh!?!? Don’t you think you are a little biased against government and authority? I don’t think you’ll ever hear me say that government is never exploitive. That’s government gone amuck. I realize that. But that’s no reason to think that government cannot be committed to justice and the nice thing about democracy is that the people have an active participation in holding government to account.

about trying to find a balance with freedoms--well, I have argued that when I said that government should not tell charities to leave their confessional views at the door. I for one think that charities can do a better job than the local welfare office through some of the programs and practices, some of which depends on reform of government policies. But the bottom line is that those freedoms don’t take precedence over the obligations of the community--and by that I don't mean the individuals in the community. I’ll get on your scriptural points a little later. Gotta head to work.