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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > How are we such easy sinners? | Forum Quick Jump
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 10/31/2008 8:28 AM (GMT -6) |   |
One Love said...Laika: Are you saying Jesus was ignorant?Jesus had creaturely perception, which has built-in capacity for ignorance. Jesus was FULLY HUMAN, sir.
God incarnate and fully human. But not ignorant.
If He claims God departed Him at that time, then I choose to believe Him and not you.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/31/2008 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | I was just thinking, Laika. We agree God is never ignorant. But you also believe that God "is not" where "sin is." So let me ask you, does God know what's occurring where "sin is" and where he "is not"? If God "is not" there, how's God know anything about what "is" there?
T | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/31/2008 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
To Larry (Laika), Moe (Jeff), and Curly (Mark), hi guys!
In Gen. 6, Mark, God takes out the trash in the sense of removing people from the earth. God ends their journey of life here on earth. Who’s saying God can’t do that? Is that an analogy (or an example) of God consigning people to hell irrevocably? It’s the final destiny of created beings we’re discussing. It’s taking out the trash ULTIMATELY and IRREVOCABLY that I’m interested in, not God ending somebody’s earthly journey. So maybe I'm missing your point, but I didn't see the relevancy of Gen 6 either to the question of divine omnipresence or the question of UR. Hello Olie!
That's right, I almost forgot about the two differing definitions for the word eternity. Sorry, my mistake for overlooking a finger in the UR dike.
- Curly | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/31/2008 9:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Curly: Sorry, my mistake...
Tom: I absolve you of your sin Curly. God would have absolved you if he were here, but he can't bear to be in the presence of sin, you know. But if you act good enough and long enough, God will warm up to you and put in an appearance.
;o) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/31/2008 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | On the Son having "ignorance" (just meaning "not knowing" )
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with an assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/31/2008 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | this.
that.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/31/2008 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Mark: Well you know things could get ugly if god tried to merge with a vessel of lies.
Tom: Yeah, if he were interested in "merging" with creation. But nobody's talking about that.
Carey. Funny guy!
T | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 10/31/2008 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...
On the Son having "ignorance" (just meaning "not knowing" )
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, Sure, Jesus doesn't know when God is going to do a particular thing.
But Jesus knowing when His Father withdrew His presence is a whole nother matter.
When you're in relationship to someone, you know when they're gone.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 10/31/2008 10:50 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...King David under inspiration: Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? Tom: Evidently a lot of places! You know that verse in First Laika, "Where sin did abound, grace could not bear to remain and so did retreat"?  Hmmm. T That spirit is pretty fast. 
Notice, David was in relationship to God. The occupants of Sodom were not, hence God's absence.
If God's sustaining is automatic, what danger was it for Jesus to jump off the temple and not have angels 'bear Him up'? No one is tempted by a tautology. There had to be the potential for Jesus to not be borne up for Him to say we shouldn't test God. Nothing is tested by a tautology.
If Moses couldn't wear his sandals in THAT place because it was holy ground due to God's presence in THAT place, why could Moses wear his sandals everywhere else?
Post Edited (Laika) : 10/31/2008 10:57:14 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/31/2008 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
Sure, Jesus doesn't know when God is going to do a particular thing.
But Jesus is God, right? Jesus is the Person of God's Word and Son, right? Divinity in the flesh. The Son is ONE with the Father. And all of the fulness of the Father is in the Son. How can Jesus, being the Only Begotten Son who is one with the Father, be "ignorant" of something the Father knows?
Wait, Laika! I think I see what you're saying. Are you suggesting that Jesus, who is fully human , has a human "capacity for ignorance" (associated with human noetic faculty) with respect to the Divine Will (inseparable from the Divine Spirit)? And further are you suggesting that this may imply Jesus having...gulp...two minds in one divine person corresponding to the two natures in Christ? One divine, one creaturely/human?
That's amazing. You sound just like the Councils...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 10/31/2008 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...Laika: Sure, Jesus doesn't know when God is going to do a particular thing.But Jesus is God, right? Jesus is the Person of God's Word and Son, right? Divinity in the flesh. The Son is ONE with the Father. And all of the fulness of the Father is in the Son. How can Jesus, being the Only Begotten Son who is one with the Father, be "ignorant" of something the Father knows? Wait, Laika! I think I see what you're saying. Are you suggesting that Jesus, who is fully human , has a human "capacity for ignorance" (associated with human noetic faculty) with respect to the Divine Will (inseparable from the Divine Spirit)? And further are you suggesting that this may imply Jesus having...gulp...two minds in one divine person corresponding to the two natures in Christ? One divine, one creaturely/human? That's amazing. You sound just like the Councils...
It's pretty simple; scripture presents:
Jesus doesn't know when that event will happen, only God knows.
Jesus experienced God's absence while on the cross and expressed that verbally.
Anything else is speculation.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/31/2008 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
It's pretty simple; scripture presents:
Jesus doesn't know when that event will happen, only God knows.
Jesus experienced God's absence while on the cross and expressed that verbally.
Anything else is speculation.
Ok, then. What best explains the scriptural evidence.
1) Postulate the impossibility of omnipresent perspective. (The Spirit of God is not omnipresent.)
2) Creaturely perception from the created noetic faculties has the freedom to "negate" or "ignore" perception and appreciation of God's Omnipresent Spirit. [I would argue the the Incarnation of Christ-the-Logos demonstrates this. (My God, My God! Why have you forsaken me?) ]
Which idea is more explanatory of everything to be explained (Satan's relationship to God) and has more scriptural backing?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/31/2008 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Let's see...
I'm right. Anything else is speculation.
Did it work? Do I win?
;o) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 10/31/2008 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...
2) Creaturely perception from the created noetic faculties has the freedom to "negate" or "ignore" perception and appreciation of God's Omnipresent Spirit. [I would argue the the Incarnation of Christ-the-Logos demonstrates this. (My God, My God! Why have you forsaken me?) ] Ignorance of perception only proves ignorance of perception.
It doesn't prove the existence of any particular thing.
I don't know the names of any of the unicorn kings of Mars. Does this prove that unicorn kingdoms exist on Mars?
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/31/2008 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | I wish Selah was omnipresent, then she could make me some pancakes! ;o)
T | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 10/31/2008 12:27 PM (GMT -6) | |
selah said...
oh my word... i am laughing SO hard over here!
Laika, have we ever met? You are one of the funniest people on the planet, my friend.
Funny AND good theology... very nice.
You're local, right?
We've never met.
Anywhere I am, I'm local.
Saturday we'll be at Tom's house.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/31/2008 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, Selah, you believe something WORSE, namely, that poop is self-existent. How blasphemous is that!
So if I make my bed in hell God is there, but if I'm buried alive in poop God can't help me. And this is good theology?
D, check your hotmail.
Tom
PS Does anybody know where God is? I'm checking everywhere, but the world I live in is so sinful, God seems to have vanished. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/31/2008 1:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
So if I make my bed in hell God is there, but if I'm buried alive in poop God can't help me. And this is good theology?
Hmmm. What WOULD Paul Eddy and Greg [Across the Spectrum] say about this theological perspective? (God's Spirit NOT being in all things, even "poop"; God not being omnipresent. )
I'm calling Bethel Sem... 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/31/2008 1:11 PM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
Does anybody know where God is? I'm checking everywhere, but the world I live in is so sinful, God seems to have vanished.
High Priest Olie,
I have an Idea. Why don’t you have Stan place bells on your robe, tie a long rope around your ankle and send you out in search of his holy presence.
Post Edited (Truth Aficionado) : 10/31/2008 2:12:11 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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