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selah
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HA... Now D makes a joke.

"I'm calling Bethel sem"


hahaha.. Don't you know THEY're the ones who taught me there's no such thing as the devil?

devil


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

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Corey
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There's equivocation of the word "present" at the heart of the disagreement on this thread.


A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy? - Einstein

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HA!! I know whatcha mean...

Seriously though...

Is The Spirit of Christ-the-Logos (God Himself) not "in" Jesus of Nazareth's defecation process at all?

God ain't "in" Jesus' poop?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey:
There's equivocation of the word "present" at the heart of the disagreement on this thread.

Then help out.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whole thread.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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Laika
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
selah said...
HA... Now D makes a joke.

"I'm calling Bethel sem"


hahaha.. Don't you know THEY're the ones who taught me there's no such thing as the devil?

devil

We've replaced access to God via priests with access to God via theologians.
 
 


 

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Selah:
We've replaced access to God via priests with access to God via theologians.

Who are "theologians", from an EO standpoint?

Hint: Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Quote from the page...

So the Fathers living in theoria (vision of God) are the real theologians or even the real theology, since theology fills their whole existence.

Another extended quote from this page...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

St. Isaac the Syrian speaks of three kinds of knowledge. Let us examine how they differ, for I think that this will show us how the Orthodox tradition differs from the human cultural tradition, how divine knowledge differs from human knowledge.

There are three conceivable ways in which knowledge ascends and descends. These ways are body, soul and spirit (p.258). Indeed when the Fathers speak of body, soul and spirit they do not mean the three parts of man, but by the word `spirit' they mean the gift of grace, that divine grace with which man is blessed. Without the grace of God a man is said to be a man of soul or flesh, while with the presence of grace he is called spiritual. While the nature of knowledge is one, it is refined and changes its modes according to these intelligible and sensible realms (p.258). Thus just as there are three sentient and intelligible modes: body, soul and spirit, so there are three kinds of knowledge related to them. According to the kind of knowledge which a man possesses, he shows his spiritual progress and his spiritual condition. Moreover, the kind of knowledge which someone has is an indication of his purification and healing. One whose soul is unhealthy has bodily knowledge, while one who is being healed has soul knowledge, and one who has been healed has spiritual knowledge. The latter knows the mysteries of the Spirit, which are unknown and incomprehensible to the man of flesh.

The first knowledge is acquired by constant study and diligence in learning, the second knowledge comes from a pure and good manner of life and from the mind's faith, and the third knowledge "is allotted to faith alone. For by faith knowledge is abolished, works come to an end, and the employment of the senses becomes superfluous" (p.264).

Let us look more analytically, on the basis of St. Isaac's teaching, at these three kinds of knowledge which indicate the sickness or health of a man's soul.

First, bodily knowledge. Some characteristic elements of human knowledge which are connected with the desires of the flesh are wealth, vainglory, adornment, bodily rest, and assiduity in rational wisdom, such as is suitable for the governance of the world and which devises the novelties of inventions and arts and sciences (p.258). This knowledge is opposed to faith, as we have explained before, because it thinks that "all things are by its own providence" (p.258). Wisdom and knowledge of things of this world without the other two kinds of knowledge are useless and create many problems for man. This knowledge is shallow and rude, for it is "naked of all concern for God" (p.258). Its concern is only for this world, and because it is controlled by the body, "it introduces into the mind an irrational impotence" (p.258).

Most men of our time, unhealed in soul, possess this knowledge and cultivate it continually. The whole of contemporary civilisation, which creates many anomalies of soul and body, is in this state. Hence this one-sidedness of knowledge creates many problems. Here is how St. Isaac describes them. The man of this bodily knowledge is a prey to faint-heartedness, sorrow, despair, fear of the demons, trepidation before men, the rumour of thieves and the report of murders, anxiety over illnesses, concern over want and the lack of necessities, fear of death, fear of sufferings, of wild beasts and of other similar things that make up the sea of the present life (p.258). The man who possesses this human and bodily knowledge does not know how to abandon himself to God's mercy but tries in his own ways to solve the various problems. But when he cannot give solutions, for different reasons, then he "strives with men as though they hindered and opposed" this knowledge (p.258). He comes to blows with men because they hinder the possession of the goods of bodily knowledge.

This bodily knowledge, worldly care, completely eradicates love. It makes one examine other people's small sins and errors and their causes, and their weaknesses, it makes one dogmatise and oppose the words of others, become sly in all one's doings and devise ways to dishonour people. This knowledge contains presumption and pride (p.259).

We see clearly that bodily knowledge is characteristic of contemporary civilisation. With prophetic insight St. Isaac presents the causes and pursuits of this carnal man, describes his struggle and anguish, and also presents the frightful results of this bodily knowledge. Disturbance of personal relationships, lack of love, obstinacy and cunning in all actions are the things which define the contemporary man who is sick in soul, far from God.

The second knowledge, that of the soul. When a man renounces the first, bodily, fleshly knowledge and turns to the desires and conversations of the soul, then all the good deeds of the soul's knowledge follow. These are fasting, prayer, mercy, reading of the Scriptures, the modes of virtue, battle with the passions, and so forth (p.258). All these deeds are made perfect by the Holy Spirit. They do not happen by the power of man but by the working together of man and the Holy Spirit. There are stages in the acquisition of knowledge. The second degree of knowledge is made perfect "when it has laid the foundation of its action on seclusion from men, reading the Scriptures, and prayer" (p.260). That is to say, the possessor of this knowledge of the soul lives in stillness, with all that implies, as we described in the preceding chapter. He prays to God unceasingly and studies the Scriptures in this holy atmosphere of stillness in order to nourish his soul, not in order to learn the words of God out of curiosity. This category includes those people who are being cured of psychic ulcers and the wounds of their soul. This cure offers a knowledge which can be called the preliminary stage and anteroom of that other, spiritual knowledge, which the coming of the grace of God will provide in the heart of man.

The third, spiritual knowledge. When man's knowledge is raised above worldly concerns and begins to see inwardly "what is hidden from the eyes" and when it scorns the things "from which the perverseness of the passions arises" and stretches itself upward in its desire for the promises of the age to come and in its searching into hidden mysteries, "then faith itself swallows up knowledge, converts it, and begets it anew, so that it becomes wholly and completely spirit" (p.261).

Then it can fly to the places of the bodiless angels; it knows the spiritual mysteries, the governings of the spiritual and the corporeal. That is to say, it knows the inner principles of beings. Then the inner senses awaken and the soul receives the resurrection which gives assurance of the future resurrection of men. St. Isaac, who possessed this spiritual knowledge which is the life of faith, wrote: "Then it can soar in the realms of the bodiless and touch the depths of the unfathomable sea, musing upon the wondrous and divine workings of God's governance of intelligible and corporeal creatures. It searches out spiritual mysteries that are perceived by the simple and subtle nous. Then the inner senses awaken for spiritual doing, according to the order that will be in the immortal and incorruptible life. For even from now it has received, as it were in a mystery, the intelligible resurrection as a true witness of the universal renewal of all things" (p,261).

This knowledge was possessed by all the saints of God, such as Moses, David, Isaiah, the Apostle Peter, the Apostle Paul and all the saints who were accounted worthy of this perfect knowledge, "to the degree possible for human nature" (p.259). In reality this knowledge comes from vision of God and of the uncreated light, from divine revelations or, as St. Isaac puts it, "by diverse contemplations and divine revelations, by the lofty vision of spiritual things and by ineffable mysteries..." (p.259). Then knowledge is swallowed up by these visions of God and the person feels that he is dust and ashes (p.259). He acquires the blessed state of humility and simplicity. Thus spiritual knowledge, that is, knowledge of God, is the fruit of theoria. It is received by the person who has progressed from carnal knowledge to that of the soul and thence to spiritual knowledge.

Briefly one can say that the first knowledge "renders the soul cold to works that go in pursuit of God". The second knowledge warms the soul to the swift course "on the level of faith". The third knowledge is rest from labour, "which is the type of the age to come, for the soul takes delight solely in the mind's meditation upon the mysteries of the good things to come" (p.262).


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 10/31/2008 2:33:44 PM (GMT-5)

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selah
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
oh my word...now we're talking about Jesus' poop!!! This is one of the best threads of all time!

Ok. Seriously (for u D)

I will gladly say "I am not 100% certain The Spirit of Christ-the-Logos is NOT in Jesus of Nazareth's defecation process at all"

But I will have to add: "I am not 100% certain The Spirit of Christ the Logos IS in Jesus of Nazareth's defecation process either."

I will also say: I agree to disagree about whether or not Jesus is IN satan.
And... It does help me to think about Jesus as PRESENT TO satan. It helps a lot.

So thanks Tommy. Pancakes for all in April!!!!

T


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

Post Edited (selah) : 10/31/2008 1:38:01 PM (GMT-5)

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Laika
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
selah said...
oh my word...now we're talking about Jesus' poop!!! This is one of the best threads of all time.
Poop doesn't need to be sustained.  It will float on it's own provided there's enough roughage in it.
 
 


 

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selah
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I know very few theologians who I would say are "pure in heart" D. But I am not Christ...the logos...so who am I to judge?

Hopefully I wont have to crawl over homeless starving people to get to the Chicago Hilton to see/hear these theologians teach me about God.

That's all I'm sayin'


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laika:
Poop doesn't need to be sustained (by God)

Am I in the friggin Twilight Zone or what? Something that exists in time/space does NOT need to be sustained by God?
 
Lord, help...
 
drowning


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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selah
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
do do doo doo


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Selah:
Well, I know very few theologians who I would say are "pure in heart" D. But I am not Christ...the logos...so who am I to judge?

Hopefully I wont have to crawl over homeless starving people to get to the Chicago Hilton to see/hear these theologians teach me about God.


Then let's continue to pray for all of us who think we know something about God...and feel called to teach about what we think we know. May God continue to enlighten all of us into his unthinkable love. And may the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, continue to have mercy on all of us sinners. ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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selah
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
YES. Lets!

Also, If you can get Paul and Greg to email me and say "The Spirit of Christ the Logos is IN poop...sustaining it" well...that would be pretty powerful...
I might have to give in biggrin


...oh, but at least one of them would have to give me permission to publish their comments. That's key in the world of theology. :-)


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

Post Edited (selah) : 10/31/2008 1:49:59 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Selah:
It does help me to think about Jesus as PRESENT TO satan. (rather an "IN" ) It helps a lot.

How can Jesus be "present to" every matrix of relationality that forms "Satan", permeating him completely with creatively sustaining Grace (Divine Presence)...being the "interiority" and "divine ground" of Satan's inwardness, the context of his self-experience and self-relationship...

...and yet be "OUTSIDE OF" Satan, in any meaningful sense?

Someone help me get the joke...cause I don't get it.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Selah:
Also, If you can get Paul and Greg to email me and say "The Christ the Logos is IN poop...sustaining it" well...that would be pretty powerful...

That's confirmation right there. I ACTUALLY thought about doing that 30 mins ago. So, I guess I'll do it now...


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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selah
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   Posted 10/31/2008 1:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's not a joke, D. I'm trying to understand. I am just saying it helps ME to think about it in a different way... that's all.


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2008 8:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok, y'all. I got a response from Greg. I think that this could be allowable to post some of it here. Greg's words. This is what I typed to Greg...

-------------------------------

Greg,
How's it going, bro? Blessed, I hope. Check it out. I don't mean to take up your time, but I have a question. Selah, TGB and I are talking about this.

TGB and I are saying that the Spirit of Christ-the-Logos (the omnipresent Spirit of God) is panentheistically "within" Satan, lovingly and creatively sustaining his created spiritual being through the power of God's Word. This implies two things for us:
1) Satan as created subject is continually sustained by God Himself (in his energies) in Grace.
2) Human feces...yeah, I said that...as created matter is continually sustained by God Himself (in his energies) in Grace.

Selah is having a hard time saying that the Spirit of Christ-the-Logos is "within" Satan in any way, even in the creative sense...because, in her perspective, God doesn't (and cannot) dwell with evil...and Satan is a spiritual being trapped in evil. Selah is also having a hard time believing that the Spirit of Christ the Logos sustains human "poop" along with everything else in Creation. Yeah, as she says it...

"For the record: I do not believe God's spirit is in poop....or in satan."

and...

After my asking her this: Is the Spirit of Christ-the-Logos in Jesus' of Nazareth's pooping at all? ...she said...

"I will gladly say 'I am not 100% certain The Spirit of Christ-the-Logos is NOT in Jesus of Nazareth's defecation process at all'...But I will have to add: 'I am not 100% certain The Spirit of Christ the Logos IS in Jesus of Nazareth's defecation process either.' "

So, we want to know your perspective. What's your take? And NO this isn't a joke! :0) Just whenever you get time...

Love ya,
Dwayne

--------------------------

Here's the relevant stuff from Greg's return email...something I don't think he'd mind my postin'


"Heh, God holds ALL THINGS together by his Word (Heb. 1:3)

I'm thinking "All Things" [mean] poop and Satan.

GB (the simple) "


Alrighty then.

Next?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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Tom
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   Posted 11/1/2008 1:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We had this discussion (about omnipresence, and poop might even have been mentioned too!) years ago with GREG during our Coolboard days. He admitted the same thing then. It's clearly the biblical view (not a Greek invention).

I've been quoting Heb. 1.3 for pages here along with Col. 1's "in him all things hold together." And I've repeatedly asked the other side in this discussion for an interpretation of these passages, an understanding of the passages that would be consistent with it's being the case that the sustaining presence of God (that activity of God--whatever it is--"in which all things hold together" ) does not extend without exception to all the material and immaterial creation (being co-terminous with it).

Corey said the thread is equivocating on the meaning of 'present'. I kinda thought that too. I see two main uses:

On the one hand 'being present' can entail "engaging relationally with another person" (as when one's presence is acknowledged or when one "acts" on occasion in some purposeful way). In this case it's the 'experience' of the 'effects' of one's presence that's in focus. And this is how we're able to speak of God being "present" in the Temple in a way he isn't present in the outhouse.

On the other hand 'being present' can just mean one's effective awareness or range of perception and one's scope of effective influence. In this sense I'm present right here in my 'can' (little trailer I live in) where I'm writing this note. I'm able to perceive everything in this room and effectively influence anything pretty much immediately, without having to move or relocate myself.

An example of the first sort of 'presence' (the gift of God's favor in some relational context) might be what's meant on occasions in the Old Testament when God says to Moses that "My presence will not go with you all," etc., meaning "I'm not going to protect you if you go that way." It's not a denial of omnipresence to say God does NOT "act" in this or that unique way everywhere in the universe.

But it's the second sense that D and I are discussing as the sense in which God is present throughout Creation. God's not in poop manifesting his presence in relationally relevant ways with respect to covenants or promises he's made with people--obviously. But God is in poop in the Col. 1 & Heb. 1 sense, sustaining the created order through his powerful word. And it's in this latter sense that everything that occurs in the universe, everything without exception, constitutes part of God's experience of Creation. God is experiencing what's going on--everywhere--ya'll. But (contrary to Laika) this doesn't make God the author of sin because the rules that govern free and responsible behavior exist within and because of the same context of God's sustaining the continued existence of the universe. And these rules include those to which God binds himself, like God's agreeing to respect our freedom and give us room to choose. This arrangement is also 'sustained' by God's powerful word. God agrees to hold in existence beings who rebel and commit evil while they rebel and commit evil AND while he [God] opposes that same rebellion and attempts to convince those same people to do otherwise given the rules that govern free and responsible behavior. This all happens within a matrix that operates on rules God sovereignly established and which his presence not only maintains but which it actually constitutes.

Col 1 “in him all things hold together”
Heb. 1 “he holds all things together by his powerful word”
Acts 17 “in whom we live and move and have our being”

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 11/1/2008 9:32:32 AM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 11/1/2008 1:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I love how the Scripture needs Greg's approval! Ha!

Tom
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Tom
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   Posted 11/1/2008 2:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gregorious Maximus: "God holds ALL THINGS together by his Word" (Heb. 1:3) I'm thinking "all things" [mean] poop and Satan.

Tom: Mmmmwwwaaahahahahaha! I'm rolling.

T
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One Love
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   Posted 11/1/2008 4:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gregorious Maximus: "God holds ALL THINGS together by his Word" (Heb. 1:3) I'm thinking "all things" [mean] poop and Satan.

Tom: Mmmmwwwaaahahahahaha! I'm rolling.


Thought you'd get a kick outta that. ;-)

Looks like Selah's gonna haveta make a choice...hehe...

Selah said...

Also, If you can get Paul and Greg to email me and say "The Spirit of Christ the Logos is IN poop...sustaining it" well...that would be pretty powerful...
I might have to give in
biggrin

Er...uh...um...well...?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/1/2008 4:52:29 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 11/1/2008 4:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And good clarification on the "presence" equivocation, too.  Hopefully, that will help things...
 
reading 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 11/1/2008 6:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Helloooooooooooooooooo, Selah...
 
biggrin 

So, what's really good, shawty?

(soundtrack)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 11/1/2008 6:04:56 AM (GMT-5)

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selah
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   Posted 11/1/2008 6:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok kids, I have to go to Chicago in like 2 min.

On the greg thing. The only reason I would ever need greg's "approval" (which isn't what I asked for TGB!) is that I trust Greg's theology squares with mine on most things. I was hoping GB would say this is SUCH a peripheral issue that we can't know for certain anyway... Plus, I'm similarly wired...so I was hoping he would be able to explain what you guys haven't been able to. Anywayz, since we only have a piece of Greg's response (and since TGB already posted the Heb passage), I'm afraid its not helpful. Greg didn't give me any new info ...which is what I was hoping for...

back to the drawing board

T


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

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