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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 6:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hmmmm...
Well, I guess that's it. I don't know what else to say. Greg thinks this is a "gimme" almost...and pretty much said so. But I guess that ain't enough. Well, if hearing this from Greg doesn't make a difference, I don't know what will. Definitely not Tom and me sayin' stuff on this...so...
Oh, well. 
Have a great trip, Selah!
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/1/2008 6:18:32 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
This is for you D. and its related to the "whole thread" post above. Something I've noticed about NPD. Ppl who struggle with it tend to use words I call "padding" in what they say. Perfect example "This was PRETTY MUCH ALL he posted ON THE DIRECT subject. And they TEND to add summary statements that support their views like: "This is how much of a "gimme" he thought it was."
I will take this under advisement. Thanks. 
**********************************
Selah:
I DON't want this now (because I can't check email for a few days), but what I asked for was an EMAIL FROM GB and Paul that explains how Jesus is in poop and satan. What I received was a portion of an email from GB ...TO YOU...and a summary statement (and a "whole thread" that seems to be pointing to my problem with denial?)... Anyway, its cool. Just want you to know where I'm at.
Won't you be seeing Greg at the theological conference? He and Paul? Why don't you just ask them yourself...and let us know what they say?
That's simple enough.
But if you don't see them there, just let me know. I will just email Paul and Greg about your desire for an email from them on this issue. I think they'll be cool with this and send you a pretty timely response. And we can put their responses here. Is that cool for you?
We can do whatever you like...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/1/2008 7:19:39 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/1/2008 2:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Cool sermon on omnipresence by Wesley: http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/111/
“In a word, there is no point of space, whether within or without the bounds of creation, where God is not.” John Wesley
“Totam Mens agitans molem,
et magno se corpore miscens”
[The all-informing soul,
That fills, pervades and actuates the whole.] John Wesley
“Just equivalent to this is the expression of the Apostle: (Eph. 1:23, not, as some have strangely supposed, concerning the Church, but concerning the Head of it) ‘The fullness of him that filleth all in all’ ta panta en pasin, literally translated, ‘all things in all things’ — the strongest expression of universality which can possibly be conceived.” John Wesley
[Tom: I had overlooked Eph. 1.23. Wow (along with Col 1.17; Heb. 1.3; and Ps 139.7-8.)]
“Indeed, wherever we suppose him not to be, there we suppose all his attributes to be in vain. He cannot exercise there either his justice or mercy, either his power or wisdom. …where we suppose God not to be present, we must, of course, suppose him to have no duration; but as it is supposed to be beyond the bounds of the creation, so it is beyond the bounds of the Creator’s power. Such is the blasphemous absurdity which is implied in this supposition.” John Wesley
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 2:48 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Great stuff, Tom!
John Wesley:
“Indeed, wherever we suppose him not to be, there we suppose all his attributes to be in vain. He cannot exercise there either his justice or mercy, either his power or wisdom. …where we suppose God not to be present, we must, of course, suppose him to have no duration; but as it is supposed to be beyond the bounds of the creation, so it is beyond the bounds of the Creator’s power. Such is the blasphemous absurdity which is implied in this supposition.”
"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith."
"...when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"
"Then he touched their eyes and said, 'According to your faith let it be done to you' "
"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and do not doubt in your heart but believe that what you say will happen, it will be done for you. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
Faith as the creaturely appropriation of Grace (Divine Presence). Faith "energized" by Love (Divine Presence).
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/1/2008 2:53:49 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 6:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | Better question: Did you ask Greg and Paul yet? (Just wondering)
I'm on pins and needles...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 6:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
Not yet. Are you sure they're here?
Nope, I'm not sure. I thought that Greg and Paul were going, from what I knew. Maybe I'll check and see. If he's not going, and he's there tomorrow (WHC), I'll just holla at him and Paul. No biggie.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/1/2008 6:54 PM (GMT -6) | | OL: Are you saying it's not possible for the Spirit of Christ to produce a "holy", "sinless" life for a believer? Is that something too hard for God?
Selah: Yes, i am saying that, D. Even with my mystic leanings...
Wow. "With God, nothing shall be impossible."
Just want to get this ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT: It is NOT in the Holy Spirit's ability to bring a human being into a "holy", sinless existence...EVER...in this world? That is "impossible" for God's Spirit to do in a human being?
Thinking about Enoch and Elijah...who didn't see death...
PS: Nope. Not preaching this weekend.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/1/2008 6:57:55 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's my thought:
I can understand us believing that it's not possible for US, the limited created human spirit and it's powers. I got that. Of course, we can't do it. But to say that the Infinite, Uncreated Divine Spirit of Christ-the-Logos doesn't have the ability to do that? I just don't know about that...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/1/2008 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Sure.
Before Elijah was taken up into heaven...was he sinful? Or let me say it this way...
Was Elijah "holy" and "sinless" by God's power when he was taken up into heaven?
Just your own thoughts. Simple question.
It's very important to remember that Elijah did NOT see death...and REAPPEARED at the Transfiguration. I'm assuming that he was in God's Presence (in whatever way) between those times...AND he was fully human.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/1/2008 7:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | Selah, I think my question dealt with his state before he was taken up to heaven. Heck, we can even talk about his state AT THE TRANSFIGURATION if you like?
Can a sinful, unpurified human being "ascend" to God like that?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 7:12 PM (GMT -6) | | James 5
Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
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Matthew 17
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
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2 Kings
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.
He picked up the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. Then he took the cloak that had fallen from him and struck the water with it. "Where now is the LORD, the God of Elijah?" he asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/1/2008 7:20:14 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2008 7:17 PM (GMT -6) | | 1 Corinthians 15
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (OL's Note: Transfiguration scene...) Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
So...was Elijah a sinful, fallen human being when he "ascended" from Elisha and "descended" at the Transfiguration?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/2/2008 3:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Uh oh. This is morphing into another thread...again!
As I understand, Wesley did believe that we could come to the place where we no long 'sin'. And he defined sin as "any willful disobedience of a known law" (as opposed to Calvin's idea of sin as "any failure to conform to the law of God--known or unknown"; I might be off on Calvin there, but anyhow...). Given Wesley's definition, then, I can't think of a reason for believing it's impossible for us to reach that. I think we just have a low estimation of our capacity to relate to God.
But I don't wanna get off on this. My question for Selah is, "Well, yeah. Wesley believed that. So what?" ;o) I just posted Wesley to show that what D and I (and Greg) are saying isn't some new, way-out, warped view of the world. It's pretty stright-line orthodox stuff. There are other examples too. Nobody in Church history that I know of (and I'm no expert) would have (or did, in fact) respond to the idea that God is everywhere present (on a minimal level) with the amazement ya'll here have had. Nobody would have been surprised at all, since that WAS (and is) the standard belief. That's why I posted Wesley. YOU GUYS are the newer kids on the block with your belief that there are places and states of affairs outside God's perception and influence (which is what follows from 'removing' God from any slice of creation).
TPost Edited (Tom) : 11/2/2008 2:57:16 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/2/2008 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | You're right, Tom. I won't get distracted. Let's focus on the omnipresence thing. But I like your responses...
Tom:
As I understand, Wesley did believe that we could come to the place where we no long 'sin'. And he defined sin as "any willful disobedience of a known law" (as opposed to Calvin's idea of sin as "any failure to conform to the law of God--known or unknown"; I might be off on Calvin there, but anyhow...). Given Wesley's definition, then, I can't think of a reason for believing it's impossible for us to reach that. I think we just have a low estimation of our capacity to relate to God.
Yesyesyesyesyesyes.
When the Son of Man returns....will their be FAITH on the earth? Our faith in the Triune God can trump our LACK of faith in our own abilities to relate to God well. But we see what happens to people who have faith (Enoch, Abraham, Elijah, Moses, David, Mary, etc) and the "impossible" things that happen with them. Thinking of Jesus' words...
Very truly I tell you, all who have faith in me (OL's Note: that's US believers!!) will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. (OL's Note: Sending of the Spirit)
************************************* Tom: . My question for Selah is, "Well, yeah. Wesley believed that. So what?" ;o) I just posted Wesley to show that what D and I (and Greg) are saying isn't some new, way-out, warped view of the world. It's pretty stright-line orthodox stuff. There are other examples too. Nobody in Church history that I know of (and I'm no expert) would have (or did, in fact) respond to the idea that God is everywhere present (on a minimal level) with the amazement ya'll here have had. Nobody would have been surprised at all, since that WAS (and is) the standard belief. That's why I posted Wesley. YOU GUYS are the newer kids on the block with your belief that there are places and states of affairs outside God's perception and influence (which is what follows from 'removing' God from any slice of creation).Exactamundo, sir! 
And all this...to get away from the idea that God loves Satan, completely permeating and creatively sustaining his totality by the power of the Word at all times? It's just interesting to me...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/2/2008 5:26:32 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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