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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/2/2008 6:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | OL:
Our faith in the Triune God can trump our LACK of faith in our own abilities to relate to God well.
1 John
This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask (John 14:13, 16:26, etc), because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who keep his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he (Christ-the-Logos) gave us.
Mark
The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for the rich to enter the kingdom of God."
The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With human beings this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/2/2008 5:34:18 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/2/2008 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Praise the LORD, my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
Praise the LORD, my soul,
and forget not all his benefits—
who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.
The LORD works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.
He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:
The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;
for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
As for mortals, their days are like grass,
they flourish like a flower of the field;
the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
But from everlasting to everlasting
the LORD's love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children's children—
with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.
The LORD has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.
Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
Praise the LORD, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the LORD, my soul.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/2/2008 5:48:06 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 11/2/2008 6:45 PM (GMT -6) | | |
OK. I'm back from my weekend trip. I've got a few questions in need of answering?
1) Can two 3-dimensionally extended objects occupy the same space at the same time? If not, why not?
2) If so, then God can as easily be thought of as omnipresent I suppose. But how does God's occupancy of the same set of points that I occupy account for my continued existence since I, too, occupy that set of points? Obviously, spatial occupancy of a set of spatial points, per se, is not sufficient to explain the continued existence of an entity.
If this is a merely scriptural, as opposed to philosophical debate, let me know. Philosophically, I don't see how omnipresence explains anything as to why a being continues to exist. I don't even see how continued existence, per se (i.e., merely existing at some fixed set of points in space with no change of state over time), requires the notion of causality, at all. To my mind, only when there is some change of state of an entity over time is there a cause implied.
I'll address the two scriptural statements when I get more time. But as a starter, I'm not aware of any verses that say that I exist because God occupies the same set of points that I occupy.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/3/2008 7:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff: OK. I think we're agreed then that omnipresence doesn't account for what we're trying to account for.
Tom: It's 'entailed' in what we're trying to account for, in my view. That is, it's a specific KIND of presence, namely divine action and willing.
Comment on the passages when you can. Thanks!
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted Today 7:39 PM (GMT -6) | | TOM: In fact, why don't you just start with the biblical passages (Ps 139, Eph. 1, Col. 1, Heb. 1 to begin with) first. I'm most interested in that.
JEFF: I looked at a couple of commentaries on Col. 1 and Heb. 1. The commentator of Col. 1 said the verb used there can mean to create, organize, etc. It is in the perfect sense, per that commentator, which makes me think it is not talking about on-going activity. It can mean something as simple as the universe finds, as its ground for its organizational relations, the sentient satisfaction of Christ. IOW, things don't merely EXIST for him. THey exist in their particular RELATIONS for him and/or by him.
The word in Hebrews 1 has the idea of "bear" as in "forebear." It may mean just that. THat apart from Christ, the universe could not be borne by God. For Christ is not only one for whom Christ exists, thus giving God motive for the bearing of creation, but Christ actually provided propitiation by his own volitional act.
I still need to look at Psalms, yet. But I'm thinking scripture is too equivocal to be much help on this issue. I think it's more of a philosophical argument.
Post Edited (Similtude) : 11/8/2008 8:07:24 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/9/2008 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | TOM: In fact, why don't you just start with the biblical passages (Ps 139, Eph. 1, Col. 1, Heb. 1 to begin with) first. I'm most interested in that.
JEFF: I looked at a couple of commentaries on Col. 1 and Heb. 1. The commentator of Col. 1 said the verb used there can mean…
TOM: What meaning do you attribute (Col. 1.16) to Paul’s belief that the “all things” which constitute creation exist “in” him? Notice:
For ‘en auto’ all things were created, whether things, etc., … all things were created ‘dia auton’ and ‘eis auton’.
We can argue about prepositions, but I don’t take the first “en” as instrumental, meaning “by means of.” That’s clearly the meaning of “dia” at the end, and the “eis” is clearly telic there at the end, describing the purpose for which all things were created. But the openning "en"? Locative. The means by which and purposes for which all things exist are found in Christ, that is, within the sphere of his effectual will. That's all omnipresence need assert.
When all the relevant passages are taken together, I personally don’t know how to avoid concluding panentheistically that all creation is “in God” and thus present to his thoughts and apprehension. And v. 17 “in him” all things consist. I don’t dispute the relatedness and organizational structures of creation that you mention. I’m just saying they ‘obtain’ as they do “in Christ.”
JEFF: …to create, organize, etc. It is in the perfect sense, per that commentator, which makes me think it is not talking about on-going activity. It can mean something as simple as the universe finds, as its ground for its organizational relations, the sentient satisfaction of Christ. IOW, things don't merely EXIST for him. They exist in their particular RELATIONS for him and/or by him.
TOM: Even if we just adopt your reading, we’re still left with a good case for UR, for “all things” are “eis” or “for” Christ.
V. 18 describes the purpose of the incarnation/resurrection: “…that in all things he might have the preeminence.” The purpose of the incarnation/resurrection is the preeminent reign of Christ in the same “all things” which are created, as v. 20 makes clear. At the very least this places the “all things” that were created (Satan included) within the scope of those things in which God intends to make Christ preeminent. I’m getting off of omnipresence and onto UR. Sorry. Omnipresence is more about the use of the prepositions and the sense in which all things hold together in him.
How is a particular created reality X “for” Christ if Christ is ignorant as to its existence and reality? But if God is not ignorant as to its reality, that’s all the omnipresence I’m arguing.
JEFF: I still need to look at Psalms, yet. But I'm thinking scripture is too equivocal to be much help on this issue. I think it's more of a philosophical argument.
TOM: I think for Paul the two are essentially one. Colossians is full of key philosophical terms of the day. He’s definitely thinking on both levels. I don’t mind.
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