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Tom
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| Posted 10/11/2008 12:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Similitude
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
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| Posted 10/12/2008 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 10/12/2008 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Got a friend who's into his ministry but I didn't know anything about him. Is he legit or what?
Couldn't tell.
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One Love
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| Posted 10/12/2008 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Is there any way to "test the fruit" from his ministry? If the Spirit is working through him, then it would be reasonable that there would be spiritual fruit from his ministry that the Holy Spirit within us would be able to discern. Spiritual discernment.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 10/13/2008 6:06 AM (GMT -6) | | What would count as fruit? I mean, let's say the guy is Christ-centered and lives a holy life and people come to faith in response to his ministry. That's good fruit. So am I then to accept the content of his prophecies? I've had very little exposure to his prophetic claims, but what I've seen has a strong nationalistic theme to it (USA is God's nation, God will protect us, etc.). Can the 'content' itself disqualify a prophetic claim? I don't see why not.
Most recently Clement prophesied that God's people should not worry about America's next president not being a believer, because God would change his heart in the Whitehouse and he will know me (God).
So D. Let's say Clement's got all the fruit we'd expect, but spouts this kind of message. How do you adjudicate the authenticity of the message?
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2008 6:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
So D. Let's say Clement's got all the fruit we'd expect, but spouts this kind of message. How do you adjudicate the authenticity of the message?
I believe that, even in the most of great "pollutions" of the Spirit by the human ego in prophecy, there can ALWAYS be "meat" to be taken off of the "bones". In other words, one could take in the message and, over time and prayer, allow Jesus to sift the wheat from the chaff. Of course this would take time, patience, and purification of our own hearts...but I believe the Spirit could do this for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 10/13/2008 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Some prophetic utterances are a mixture, sure. I'd agree to that. So how do you sift it, D? You just let Jesus "tell you" which parts are from him and which are not? How would a church's leadership or elders do this for a the whole church?
Here's an example:
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Kim Clement prophesy:
September 20, 2008 - Detroit, MI
Death, hell and the grave have no power. I am the resurrection and the life, I am He that holds the keys to death, hell and the grave. Death, where is your victory? Grave, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting? I am the rider on the horse, I am the resurrection and the life. I hold the keys to death, hell and the grave, I am the one, I am the one! The resurrection and the life, I hold the keys to death, hell and the grave.
God says, there's a stench coming from the grave, from the hearts of the people who come as enemies to this nation. There's a stench coming from the pit, coming from the pit of their beings saying "we will bring down the God of America." But who do they think they are? I'm the One, I'm the One, I'm the One, the resurrection and the life!
There's a stench coming from the people that have said "I will bring down the God of America." Who do they think they are, who do they think they are? I am the one that's on the horse, I am the King of Kings, the resurrection and the life, the resurrection and the life.
Who do they think they are to say I am no longer the one. Who do they think they are who say I am obsolete, I am no longer living. Who do they think they are who say I have gone never to return. What do think they are to say to Me, You are no longer the one. I gave My life, I gave My song, I gave My heart. I gave My heart, I gave My song to the one that crucified Me. I gave My heart, I gave My song to the ones who crucified Me.
There's a nation crying out for children. There's a nation crying out for children. They have taken the children of mine wanting them to be adults. There's a nation crying out for children that will cry to the Father. And this nation, America, will never never look away from the holy child, from the holy child who will come. The restoration of this nation, and you'll be great again, America, you'll be great again. You'll be great again, America! Because the prayers of the fathers, they have not died. From sea to shining sea, they will bow their knee. You'll be great again, America! You'll stand again, America! You'll stand proud again, America, from sea to shining sea they'll bend their knee. They'll bow their knee to the one and only Son, they'll bow their knee to the one and only Son. You'll be great again, America. You'll stand tall again, America. You'll be proud to say, we are the nation, the brave, the free, those that bring liberty. From sea to shining sea they will bend their knee.
This is the word of the Lord: You have come to hear what I have set aside for this nation for the next four years. Can a man restore order? Can a man bring change? None of those that stand shall do anything that they say, they shall attempt but without My presence and the acknowledgment of the Christ that was laid into the foundation, in the cornerstone of this nation, no man shall qualify to do anything. But the Spirit of the Lord said I have taken my prophet and prophets to the mid-term of this next president where sudden death shall cause people to say "has the Lord forsaken us?" But not so, for God said, even as this night you remember these words and you have allowed my prophet to prophesy the deep mysteries of the kingdom, for it shall be a massive and very strange happening, when they shall say "why are the democrats and the republicans suddenly joining forces with certain issues?" This shall be the working of the Lord. This shall be a presentation that shall shock and nullify those who have attempted to say "America will never stand united again." For God said you shall have two very severe enemies suddenly rise up against you and God said, you will not go to another war, for I will prevent it because I will take certain things that shall be manifested and they shall begin to withdraw because of the great authority that shall come because of the unity of this event that shall take place in the United States of America. For God says they shall say "we have no choice but to join hands, we have got to lay aside our differences." And the Spirit of the Lord said it shall be a marvelous thing. It shall confound your enemies. For God said I will cause the next four years to be a rulership under Me and under the Lord God Almighty and under the banner of the Trinity, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Do not say "God has forsaken America." I have just told you through my prophet that there shall be so many changes and America shall be known as great and they shall be proud for they have attempted to help and unite other nations but now God said there is discord amongst this nation. I will cause you to be surprised, for God said you will look and you will say "look things have happened that we never dreamed would happen" therefore let Me rule, let Me reign. For the peace of God is about to rest upon this nation, yeah it shall be My will to speak goodness and goodness shall happen, says the Spirit of God!
For it is a stench unto Me, says the Lord, to hear men speak about the possibilities of an African American president with disdain. I've already told you that there shall be an African American president that shall come to rule but it shall come in My time. It shall come in a time of maturity, it shall come at a time that is perfect for this nation. Therefore God said, do not look back and say "oh we have to go back a few years." God said, you're not going back, for I have already got the inventions ready for you to have the energy that you need and so that you can be self-sufficient. It's going to happen so quickly and God said even now, even at this time, during the Thanksgiving of this year, I shall unfold many many things in this order. Therefore God said, look, prosperity is coming back to you. Do not look and say "Wall Street" and do not say "the stock market" and do not say "this or that." God said, I have looked at you and you are the apple of My eye, and because you are the apple of My eye I will come to you like I came to David and rescue you from the enemy that has tried to pull you down, says the Lord!
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Anybody?
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Tom
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| Posted 10/13/2008 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | "But God said, no, I am not for one party or the other, but I say this to you: There shall be righteousness in the White House, and there shall be righteousness in the White House,
there will be righteousness in the White House! There will be peace in this Nation." Kim Clement
Wow.
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2008 7:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Some prophetic utterances are a mixture, sure. I'd agree to that. So how do you sift it, D? You just let Jesus "tell you" which parts are from him and which are not? How would a church's leadership or elders do this for a the whole church?
I would hope that church leadership and/or elders would trust the Holy Spirit of Jesus within each of them individually and all of them corporately to empower the discernment process. In discussion and fervent prayer, I believe that God would lead that particular leadership group on how the "message" should be received...and how MUCH of the message should be taken as genuinely from the Lord.
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Tom:
My point is, somebody like Greg would have to conclude that much of Kim's prophesy is pure rubbish. Just nationalistically motivated rubbish. God is the "God of America"? American's are--AS AMERICANS--the "apple of God's eye"? Prosperity is coming to America--prosperity prosperity prosperity?
Sift this for me D.
Reading the prophesy...interesting.
I'm gonna be praying over this throughout the day...and see what the Lord says. With that, I don't think that it makes much sense for me to "sift" this alone here. We have many Spirit-filled brothers and sisters on this board...and I believe that that one Spirit in all of us can look upon this "word" and see what God may have for us there...or what God wants us to reject.
So, I invite ALL OF US here to pray on this, discern, and speak...as we so feel lead. From that dialogue, I'm sure that the Spirit will say SOMETHING to us.
Deal?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2008 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Somebody sift the genuinely inspired in this from the non-inspired.
Brother, empowered by God's Spirit and genuinely love for Mr. Clement, I'm sure that WE (not "somebody" ) can work TOGETHER to "sift" what God may be speaking to US (the readers of this board) by the Spirit by what's said and unsaid by Mr. Clement.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 10/13/2008 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Sure, Bro. Corporate discernment. Sounds good. That's where I lean. And this is why I'm skeptical of the prophetic gift as popularly practices today. There's no accountability. And I've been around a lot of irresponsible exercise of the so-called prophetic gift, and--as a 'teacher'--had to hang around for months after the prophet leaves town to counsel and heal in the wake of his/her visit. You see my point.
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One Love
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| Posted 10/13/2008 9:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Corporate discernment. Sounds good. That's where I lean. And this is why I'm skeptical of the prophetic gift as popularly practices today. There's no accountability. And I've been around a lot of irresponsible exercise of the so-called prophetic gift, and--as a 'teacher'--had to hang around for months after the prophet leaves town to counsel and heal in the wake of his/her visit. You see my point.
Of course I do. I went to Oral Roberts University, which has LOTS of Pentecostal/Charismatic influence. Though not all of ORU exhibits some of the "abuses" I saw with prophetic words in churches and on campus...that I actually considered dropping out of seminary and ministry as a whole because of what I saw. (Sometimes, God has had to keep me in ministry kicking and screaming!) I was so disillusioned by the spiritual abuse that would take place via prophetic "giftings" that I really didn't want anything to do with anything like that...in ANY church or ANY Christian organization. God had to REALLY help me drain the bath water out, INSTEAD of chucking the whole thing. So yeah, I see your point.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 10/13/2008 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Why do all these guys come from the States and specifically down south? I mean you don't hear about big time evangelists coming out of Canada (at least not being based out of there--Todd Bentley, though he is Canadian is in ministry out of Florida). America just seems to have this long tradition of so-called "revival meetings" which seem to be almost a strictly American phenomenon. On the one hand I thank God for American Christians (I kid you not). Don't get me wrong, there is a certain good thing about this. Yes, it has it's baggage and crap (ie. prosperity gospel), but America seems to be fertil ground for missionaries and missionary endeavors. And when America does it? She does it BIG. Like no one else. I love it. But as a result we also have personality cults and such. So I have some positive things to say about American religion, but I also think there are some negative things as well.
The other thing is this: Is America/Canada/Britain/[Your country here] Going to Hell? Read anything by Noll, Hatch and Marsden. How much righteousness does it take to qualify America (or any nation) as a Christian country or how much sin needs to prevail to disqualify her from being label Christian? By what criteria then does he say: The restoration of this nation, and you'll be great again, America, you'll be great again. You'll be great again, America! Because the prayers of the fathers, they have not died. From sea to shining sea, they will bow their knee. You'll be great again, America! You'll stand again, America! You'll stand proud again, America, from sea to shining sea they'll bend their knee. They'll bow their knee to the one and only Son, they'll bow their knee to the one and only Son. You'll be great again, America. You'll stand tall again, America. You'll be proud to say, we are the nation, the brave, the free, those that bring liberty. From sea to shining sea they will bend their knee.
What does he mean, "again?" We're not founding forefathers who were preachas decrying the sin of say alcohol consumption (which was much higher in the State of Massachusetts in early America than it is today) and lack of Bible reading? Was there not slavery? This is America. But not JUST America, other countries are no different. We all toot our own horns (it's just that America with her media can blow hers the loudest). Our own poop don't stink. We all high-light our positives and downplay our negatives. And here, we see someone buying into Americana. America is so great. Really, sometimes I find it hard to not throw the messenger out with the message. Sometimes, I'd just rather stick to my simple religious life in Canada. Keep'n it simple.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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