 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Let Us Continue to Pray For Our Leaders... | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 4:09 AM (GMT -6) |   | I mean...if I'm CONFLATING the Kingdom of God and American politics in some kind of nationalistic idolatry (which is what Greg ardently talks about)...I'd really want to know about that. So holla at cha boy, Tom...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, whatever. If you wanna hail in Obama's presidency as an eschatological event of biblical proportions, fine. I'm not arguing. See his election in whatever 'theological' light you need to. All I'm saying is that the Kingdom comes THROUGH the Church TO the world (and impacts government, fine) not THROUGH government TO the Church. I see a lot of people happy about government's ability under Obama to now enable the Church to be the Church. And I disagree with that. That's the conflating you asked about.
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I see a lot of people happy about government's ability under Obama to now enable the Church to be the Church. And I disagree with that.
May I respectfully submit to you, friend and brother...that if THAT is what you are seeing here (merely people thinking Obama will now bring the Kingdom as President with his presidential actions, enabling "the Church to be the Church)...your perspective may be a bit reductionistic on the true emotional and spiritual significance this has on many.
And if you THINK that your statement is what I believe...then you don't know me as well as I thought you did. Troubling. Thought you knew me way better than this, homie... But hey, that's life, I guess. Good for me to know. 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/6/2008 3:32:44 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 4:16 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | D, come on. I'm just offering a view on the issue per se to clarify my own understanding, not to point out or judge anyone in particular for some crime. Really. Some comments did appear to me to come close to blurring the distinction. Asher noticed it too, mind you, independently of me, so....
Mr. King is a case in point. The civil rights movement was just that, a grass roots "movement" in which people (people of faith primarily), black and white, decided they were going to actually LIVE their values in spite of government and legislation that forbade them. You might say they decided to BE the Church whether or not the government sanctioned their actions. That's my point. We CAN and SHOULD do so, which takes government out of the equation when it comes to our being and doing so. That's the Church influencing government. Very cool. What the civil rights movement wasn't was the Church spending its energy to get the "right" man elected SO THAT the government would then pass laws to enable people of faith to live their values (because they saw government as an instrument of the Church to bring bring Kingdom values). See the difference? This is just my point D, nothing else.
TPost Edited (Tom) : 11/6/2008 4:15:59 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 5:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
The civil rights movement was just that, a grass roots "movement" in which people (people of faith primarily), black and white, decided they were going to actually LIVE their values in spite of government and legislation that forbade them. You might say they decided to BE the Church whether or not the government sanctioned their actions. That's my point. We CAN and SHOULD do so, which takes government out of the equation when it comes to our being and doing so. That's the Church influencing government. Very cool. What it wasn't was the government passing laws to enable people of faith to live their values. See the difference? This is just my point D, nothing else.
Then consider your point made. Personally, I don't "blur" that area. My point is that this year's election demonstrates the FRUIT of that work of which you just spoke. And to see this event as somehow LESS THAN THAT (this being an opportunity for using a governmental leader as an direct instrument of faith) seemed very problematic to me.
That's not what all the cheering is about. You see that, right?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 5:20 AM (GMT -6) | | By the way Bro., you asked people to suggest ways you (or anyone) might be conflating the Kingdom and politics. But when I tried, it was like I got rebuked for thinking it was even possible. So why invite comments along those lines at all if whoever thinks it might be occurring "just doesn't know you well enough"?
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 5:23 AM (GMT -6) | | I asked you as a friend (Tom) for ways that I may be conflating things. You gave your perspective. This was a specific question from me to you...for you to me. It wasn't generalized. And because we've known each other for so long (since what...2000?) ...and have had all the theological conversations we've had...I was frankly surprised that you would think I'd have that perspective at all. Do you not see how I could say what I did? I mean we've TALKED about this kind of stuff before with Greg and everything...remember?
This was not about rebuking "people" in general for trying to explain the possible conflation of Kingdom and politics. I know what that can look like.
This was about YOU and ME.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/6/2008 4:28:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | D: It wasn't generalized.
T: I generalized it. I do that. Can't help it.
Hey Asher, what were YOU talking about? Maybe that'll help.
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 5:47 AM (GMT -6) | | D: My point is that this year's election demonstrates the FRUIT of that work of which you just spoke.
T: Maybe. I can't say. It looks to me that this election demonstrates the fruit of a lot of politicking, advertising, some misrepresentation, and a lot of malcontent with Bush (and McCain by association). I certainly would NOT put Obama's election on par with Civil Rights legislation as the result of the Church acting and suffering prophetically to live the Kingdom in spite of legislation that forbade them to do so. No way.
I'm not talking about the political, commercial, or media-driven aspects of this election cycle. I'm talking about the fact that a person of color would get THIS CLOSE AT ALL to this kind of situation. THAT opportunity is very closely related to the fruit of the people that worked for civil liberties through the vision of the Kingdom. Surely, you've heard the number of people saying "I never thought I'd see this in my lifetime." (This was EXACTLY what my mother said when I called her on election night!) Literally, many people in my mother's generation thought that their GRANDCHILDREN'S generation MAY have seen this sometime. To see it now, for them, DOES have feelings of eschatological power...which leads to much of the praising of God for this moment.
The "day" that Martin Luther King Jr. spoke about in his "I Have a Dream" speech was "sped up" for many people.
**************************************
D: And to see this event as somehow LESS THAN THAT (this being an opportunity for using a governmental leader as an direct instrument of faith) seemed very problematic to me.
T: That just looks like your placing your hope in Obama. If not, what would placing your hope in Obama look like?
This is the whole problem with "looking to" government to be an instrument of faith. I don't see the passage of Civil Rights legislation as the government being an instrument of faith. The Church was the instrument of faith, beginning and end. Its influence upon government is a fruit of that. I wouldn't call the government as "extension" or "instrument" of faith per se. But we agree that the Kingdom comes when the Church lives its faith PRIOR to government's being brought into the equation or even considered. That's the important part. If you want to "call" the government an "instrument of faith" after the fact, fine. I wouldn't. But it doesn't matter what we "call" it.
Clarifying a misunderstanding. Rephasing my statement...
To see this event (the election of the first person of color as President-Elect) as LESS THAN the working out of the "fruit" of Kingdom work by those involved in the Movement (which to me would mean seeing this whole thing from the lens of Obama being a leader who will bring the Kingdom with his coming as a "direct instrument of faith" using his governmental power in that way) is problematic. In other words, I'm saying the opposite of what you thought I said. But I'll take that...my language was unclear, I see.
I don't place my hope in Obama as a governmental leader (or any other one, for that matter). I've said that before clearly on the Sarah Palin thread. I do see the REALIZATION OF HOPES POSSESSED in Obama's ascendancy to the Presidency. Hopes that were often clearly presented and lived in a Kingdom context...with societal and governmental effect. Even Colin Powell and Condi Rice were visibly emotional on national television about this moment. See what I'm saying?
*******************************
D: It wasn't generalized.
T: I generalized it. I do that. Can't help it.
Maybe it's that INTP / ENFJ thing. Probably.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/6/2008 4:52:43 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 5:55 AM (GMT -6) | | I know that my perspective on this is influenced by my living in the deep South most of my life...EXPERIENCING the sense of despair. I REMEMBER being told that I should "lower my expections" about what I could be and have in America because I was black. I REMEMBER being told that "we probably won't see a black president...ever." (Once I wanted to be president as a child...and gave up on that for just this reason) "Niggers can't be president", I heard. Not just by white people...but by people of color as well! No fiction. Fact.
So to say this is meaningful to someone like me...is an understatement.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/6/2008 4:59:18 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | D: I'm talking about the fact that a person of color would get THIS CLOSE AT ALL to this kind of situation. THAT opportunity is very closely related to the fruit of the people that worked for civil liberties…
T: Obviously. The election of a black man to the Presidency happened because it was possible for a black man to run for President. And that possibility IS a civil liberty for blacks made effectual through the CL Movement. Sure.
D: Clarifying a misunderstanding. Rephasing my statement...
To see this event (the election of the first person of color as President-Elect) as LESS THAN the working out of the "fruit" of Kingdom work by those involved in the Movement (which to me would mean seeing this whole thing from the lens of Obama being a leader who will bring the Kingdom with his coming as a "direct instrument of faith" using his governmental power in that way) is problematic.
T: I’m still not following this. It looks to me like you just said you view Obama “as a leader who will bring the Kingdom with his coming,” that viewing him as anything less would be problematic. I’d don’t view him in those terms. If you don’t either, then maybe it’s just the wording and extra phrases.
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | 106-year-old Obama supporter and 107-year-old Obama supporters (videos)
Watch them.
Caption: A 107-year-old woman "could not believe her eyes" when she saw Obama had become the first African-American president.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/6/2008 5:34:08 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 6:05 AM (GMT -6) | | D: So to say this is meaningful to someone like me...is an understatement.
T: I totally appreciate that D. Yesir.
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 6:06 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Clarifying a misunderstanding. Rephasing my statement...
To see this event (the election of the first person of color as President-Elect) as LESS THAN the working out of the "fruit" of Kingdom work by those involved in the Movement (which to me would mean seeing this whole thing from the lens of Obama being a leader who will bring the Kingdom with his coming as a "direct instrument of faith" using his governmental power in that way) is problematic.
T: I’m still not following this. It looks to me like you just said you view Obama “as a leader who will bring the Kingdom with his coming,” that viewing him as anything less would be problematic. I’d don’t view him in those terms. If you don’t either, then maybe it’s just the wording and extra phrases.
Ok. I do not see Obama's ascendancy in the context of him being "leader who will bring the Kingdom with his coming" into the White House. To see things strictly in this light, IMO, CHEAPENS the true significance of what's happening. To see the cheering, tears, and all that in THIS light (reductionistically, I would say) is what I view as problematic. More clarity, now?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Bro, it's a momentous day, a credit both to a system of government that at its core enshrines such equality and to the people who suffered to live out the true meaning of that government's creed when those in power failed to do so and so to pave the way for the realization of those values for all persons. I'm proud to live here and witness the moment.
Never mind the rest. ;o)
Pax,
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/6/2008 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Bro, it's a momentous day, a credit both to a system of government that at its core enshrines such equality and to the people who suffered to live out the true meaning of that government's creed when those in power failed to do so and so to pave the way for the realization of those values for all persons. I'm proud to live here and witness the moment.
Never mind the rest. ;o)
Ditto.
And I'm proud to be your friend, dude. 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/6/2008 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | GB on Wednesday's CV website:
Posted: 05 Nov 2008 10:31 AM CST
Today is a good day.
I don’t care if you’re a Democrat, Republican, Socialist, Libertarian, Communist, Anarchist or even a Christarchist who feels called to abstain from the whole political process. I couldn’t care less. The fact that Americans have elected a black man to be their president makes today a very good day!
When you reflect on the centuries of bondage and abuse blacks endured as slaves who were bought and sold like cattle and often treated worse…
when you remember that blacks were once regarded for legal purposes as just over half-human…
when you consider the extraordinary illegal and immoral ways white politicians changed all the rules to keep blacks out of power following the civil war…
when you recall the dehumanizing injustice of the Jim Crow south, the horrors of the KKK, the heroic struggles for civil rights, the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. as well as the on-going systemic racism that continues to marginalize and oppress blacks…
you can’t help but celebrate the day Americans elected a black man to lead them.
All politics aside,
today is a very good day!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
selah: every GOOD gift comes from above. That's all I'm saying. It really isn't about government vs the Church. Unity exists among people in the US and this is our evidence. And there is goodness to be celebrated.
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | I love you all. Selah, your previous note was OK, not harsh.
Personally I don't see the 'unity' that exists among people which is the fruit of Obama of which you speak. Sure, 'those who support Obama' are unified around Obama. There's euphoria and celebration. There ought to be. But the same thing can be said of McCain's supporters and unity, and they'd be celebrating the same way had he won. But unity among TRULY divided people? Obama has actual produced that? Among whom?
Again, this is beside Greg's point, which was just to celebrate the election of our first black President. That IS amazing. But I'm not going to pretend Obama is or has accomplished a unity he hasn't.
Anybody out there get my point?
T | | Back to Top | | |
|
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 11/6/2008 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | I read Greg's blog. I agree with Tom that Obama being the first black person to become the President is an momentous event. Groovy. Peace. Love. All that. But I don't want this to be any bigger than it should be. What I hear from Dwayne is basically "group identity politics." But as I've been trying to point out on all these boards is that a just government is a government that treats all citizens equally, in raising their children, rearing their families, choosing schools, practicing their religions, enjoying cultural solidarity as they freely choose, etc, etc. The question is the same for all people.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/6/2008 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Yes, D. We can't ascribe accomplishments to the Obama Presidency just yet! I'm wishing him the best. So we'll see. Then again, his biggest challenge--assuming he wants to reach across the isle--will be making sure the Dem's in both houses do the same. The Dem's were in the majority for 40 years and weren't known for reaching across the isle under any number of Presidents. So we'll see. Then again, the Repub's were in the majority and here we are in a mess as well. But I think McCain already proved he's a compromiser/across the isle Republican, if you'll remember his working together with Dem's to avoid an impasse over the Sup. Court appointments. He pi**ed off a lot of Republicans then.
Selah, you are one beautiful enFj. What an F!
Pax,
T | | Back to Top | | |
| 93 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 10:00 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|