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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 7:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Having an interesting thought. Jeff said...

I can't conceive of how 2 or more persons can have the same conscious states, including volitional impetus and still be 2 or more persons.

This seems to be the corrolary to that...

I can't conceive of how 2 different conscious states, including volitional impetus, and can inhere in 1 person.

I can see this being an assumption that disinclines people from the "two-ontologically-distinct-minds-in-one-person" idea with Christ-the-Logos.

Can you, Jeff?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/7/2008 6:31:51 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 7:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whole thread.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 7:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On the whole trinitarian neo-pantheism thing...how does this work?

"Vine" is to "Branches"...as "I, Christ" is to "I, not I, but Christ"

In other words, it will ETERNALLY be the case that only the Incarnate Word will be able to say "I, Christ, live!" ...and it will ETERNALLY be the case that all other human beings will say "I live, not I, but Christ lives in me."

This is biblical as all get out, dawg.

Just because the transparency thing is going on where the Incarnate Word's person shines through our self-giving "personalized person"...does NOT mean that there is no meaningful ontological or self-reflective distinction between the Uncreated Only Begotten Son of God and all other human hypostases.

The paradox is just like with the Spirit thing:  As Christ's Body, we ARE Christ...and as only He is the Head of the Body, we HAVE Christ.

Personally, I don't think this is the same thing as saying that, at the Consummation, all human beings will have the indivisible perspective "I, Christ."  I completely and categorically deny that.  THAT would be trinitarian neo-pantheism with respect to God the Son. That would be just as screwed up as saying that Jesus as the end of all things will say "I, the Father, live!" at some point in time...instead of eternally saying "I live, not I, but the Father lives in me."

Capice? icon_bandit


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/7/2008 6:36:49 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 7:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
"When we get to heaven..."

When we GET there, huh? yeah 
 
Forget the two-storey stuff, my dude!

Earth's crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God;
And only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries.

Elizabeth B. Browning

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.  ;-) 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/7/2008 6:58:35 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 8:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it." He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven."
Genesis 28:16-17

As I see it, the UNIVERSE is the "house of God" and "gate of heaven."


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 8:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.


Holy is the Crucified God and Creator!

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 8:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
“One can imagine that when human beings reintegrate their personhood in God, so that their hypostatic constitution will no longer resemble the divisions in creation, human apprehension will change fundamentally. The vision of the universe, its articulation in space and in time, will cease to function at all, resembling more and more the hypostatic ‘apprehension’ of the universe by [Christ] the Logos himself, for whom the whole universe in its spatial and temporal span exists as an instant of truth, as the ‘eighth’ boundless day, the aeon with no duration.”
Alexei Nesteruk
"Light from the East"

---------------------------

The utter end of the human "frustration" of the two-storey view.

"Seeing God" through spiritual contemplation of the Christ-the-Logos' "logoi" in all things.

"Space-time" will be seen as what it is: "God's Eternal, Uncreated Grace"

That's all he's talking about.

The creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.  For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

biggrin


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/7/2008 7:54:05 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 8:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Make sense, Corey?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 9:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Reprises of Thomas Merton's ideas...
 
---------------------------------
 
The False Self

Mary Fritz, C.S.J. (pp. 25-27), writes in Take Nothing for the Journey:

"The 'illusion of possession' is characterized in Thomas Merton's writings as the 'false self'. The revelation that the 'false self' is illusory and the discovery of the 'true self' in God is a main current in Merton's thought.

Every one of us is shadowed by an illusory person: a false self.

This is the man I want myself to be but who cannot exist because God does not know anything about him. And to be unknown of God is altogether too much privacy.

My false and private self is the one who wants to exist outside the reach of God's will and God's love . . . outside of reality and outside of life. And such a self cannot help but be an illusion.

For most people in the world, there is no greater subjective reality than this false self of theirs, which cannot exist. A life devoted to the cult of this shadow is what is called a life of sin (Merton, pg. 34).

"In a wonderful passage from the same writing, Merton describes our frenetic efforts to buffer ourselves from our nothingness in order to deceive ourselves and others.

All sin starts from the assumption that my false self, the self that exists only in my own egocentric desires, is the fundamental reality to which everything else is ordered. There I use up my life in the desire for pleasures and the thirst for experience, for power, honor, knowledge and love to clothe this false self and construct its nothingness into something objectively real. And I wind experiences around myself and cover myself with pleasures and glory like bandages in order to make myself perceptible to myself and to the world, as if I were an invisible body that could become visible only when something visible covered its surface (Merton, pp. 34-35).

"The image of winding oneself round like a mummy, with whatever one can control, dominate, take to oneself and take glory in, sharpens the irony of our scramble to defy our true selves to emerge. It calls to mind, too, the scathing condemnation Jesus laid upon the 'hypocrites' of His day, who were not what they seemed, buy were full of 'dead men's bones and all uncleanness' (Mt 23:27). Such an indictment is leveled at ourselves as we covet our illusions of grandeur, abuse our gifts and use others, objectifying them like stars in our own constellation, which must revolve in their fixed orbits about the main star, of course—ourselves. 'We become the center and God somehow recedes to an invisible fringe. Others become real to the extent they become significant others to the designs our our own ego. And in this process the all of God dies in us and the sterile nothingness of our desires becomes our God' [Finley, pg. 33]. The false self, 'since it intuits that it is but a shadow, that it is nothing, begins to convince itself that it is what it does' [ibid, pg. 35].

"Thus the illusory self lives out its lie, abusing its gifts, treating other subjects as objects, conveniently arranged like furnishings in one's room. It finds nothing but bitterness, unhappiness and exhaustion from seeking fulfillment in this profound alienation of the heart from it roots in mystery."

******************************************

"There is an irreducible opposition between the deep transcendent self that awakens only in contemplation, and the superficial, external self which we commonly identify with the first person singular. We must remember that the superficial "I" is not our real self. It is our "individuality" and our "empirical self" but it is not truly the hidden and mysterious person in whom we subsist before the eyes of God. The "I" that works in the world, thinks about itself, observes his own reactions and talks about itself is not the true "I" that has been united to God in Christ. It is at best the vesture, the mask, the disguise of that mysterious and unknown "self" whom most of us never discover until we are dead. Our external, superficial self is not eternal, not spiritual, far from it. This self is doomed to disappear as completely as smoke from a chimney."

 
******************************************

At the center of our being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusion, a point of pure truth, a point or spark which belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal, from which God disposes of our lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our own will. This little point of nothingness and of absolute poverty is the pure glory of God in us. It its so to speak his name written on us, as our poverty, as our indigence, and our dependence, as our sonship. It is like a pure diamond , blazing with the invisible light of heaven. It is in everybody, and if we could see it we would see these billions or points of light coming together in the face and blaze of a sun that would make all the darkness and cruelty of life vanish completely…The gate of heaven is everywhere.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/7/2008 10:44:33 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/7/2008 9:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christ-the-Logos, our "inner reality" of Uncreated Transcendently Immanent Personal Presence, makes us "real", that is to say "personal."


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 8:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"The person who is detached from creatures and things is not disturbed during contemplation or otherwise.... But the covetous person runs hither and yon within the limits of the chain binding the heart. Despite all efforts, such a one can scarcely be free even for a moment from the bondage of thoughts, which run constantly to the place where the heart has been fixed. When a person is purged of all attachment to things, then the judgment is left clear as the sky when the mists have dispersed. The joy of such a person is not dependent on creatures, for while the heart is set on none of them, all of them are possessed."
St. John of the Cross

---------------------------

Reprise of my take from a WHILE ago...

My deepest "self"...the personal presence within the deepest interiority of my consciousness...the Heart "within" my heart...is God Himself, particularly the Spirit of Christ-the-Logos, the intermediary between the Uncreated and Created.

Now remember what Torrance is saying...

In the West, Torrance suggests, there has been a growing tendency to identify the Spirit with the human spirit and creativity. He insists that the Holy Spirit can in no way be identified with the human spirit or its experiences. The Spirit, although united to human subjectivity, can never be confused with it. The Spirit retains its sovereign lordship over and independent personhood within humanity. So while the Spirit may indeed indwell our subjectivity, the Spirit cannot be identified with our subjectivity.

 
Torrance often characterizes the real presence of the Spirit in us by saying that it constitutes a profound “objective inwardness” which can never be reduced to a psychological or even a sacramental inwardness.  The Holy Spirit always belongs to God and not to us. We may be possessed by the Spirit but the Spirit is never in our possession.
 
...
 
The Spirit perfects our humanity in our humanity on the basis of the humanity of Jesus Christ.  In fact, God gives his Spirit in order to emancipate us from “imprisonment in ourselves to be lifted up to partake of the living presence and saving acts of God the Creator and Redeemer.”  And in order for this to happen the Holy Spirit must resist our spirits with “the implacable objectivity of His divine Being, objecting to our objectifying modes of thought and imparting himself to us in accordance with the modes of His own self-revealing through the Word.” The working of the Spirit “turn[s] us inside out” so that “our relations with the objective reality of God are brought to their telos.”


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/8/2008 7:04:41 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 12/8/2008 8:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Quickly…

Torrance: The Spirit, although united to human subjectivity, can never be confused with it. The Spirit retains its sovereign lordship over and independent [of] personhood within humanity. So while the Spirit may indeed indwell our subjectivity, the Spirit cannot be identified with our subjectivity.

Tom: Good.

D: My deepest “self”...is God Himself.

Tom: I see you as doing the ‘identifying’ that Torrance says we can’t do. Do you see how your “My deepest ‘self’ is God himself” transgresses Torrance’s “the Spirit cannot be identified with our subjectivity”? You don’t see any problem here? You think “My self is God himself” is compatible with Torrance’s “the Spirit indwells our subjectivity but cannot be identified with it”?

T
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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 8:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
D: My deepest “self”...is God Himself.

Tom: I see you as doing the ‘identifying’ that Torrance says we can’t do. Do you see how your “My deepest ‘self’ is God himself” transgresses Torrance’s “the Spirit cannot be identified with our subjectivity”? You don’t see any problem here? You think “My self is God himself” is compatible with Torrance’s “the Spirit indwells our subjectivity but cannot be identified with it”?


Ok, then. My deepest "self" is an emergent, relatively autonomous non-divine concresence of consciousness that is grounded in and permeated by God the Holy Spirit, who is the "objective inwardness" of all consciousness. (panexperientialism)

Is that better?

"I live (my self-relational energy, spirit), not I, but Christ (Divine Ground, Holy Spirit) lives in me."

Not a DIRECT identification.  Identification through perichoretic indwelling and participation.

And did you see everything I said about the "Vine is to Branches as 'I, Christ' is to 'I, not I, but Christ' "?  I think that should just about solve all your problems, Tom. I mean, you'd have ETERNAL PERSONAL DIFFERENTIATION in SELF-REFLECTIVE (1st person) EXPERIENCE between the Only Begotten and EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING.  And that's the main thing that you wanted, right?  Well, you got it.  And this view is perfectly compatible with the idea of the human spirit being "transparent" to the Spirit of Christ's Personalizing Person, participating in Christ's "theandric" energies.

What are your thoughts, Corey? biggrin


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/8/2008 7:57:23 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 8:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's the bi-polar assymetrical pattern.

We "ARE" Christ (Christ's Body, Christ's Bride [dwelling in DEEPEST "KNOWING" UNION with Him!] )
 
and we "HAVE" Christ (Christ as Head, Christ as Bridegroom)...
 
just like God IS Spirit and God HAS Spirit.

Come on, now... ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/8/2008 7:55:39 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 8:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This oughta do it, homes...


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 8:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, this is it.

I can feel it.
 
Game over.

biggrin 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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Tom
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: Ok, then. My deepest "self" is an emergent, relatively autonomous non-divine concresence of consciousness that is grounded in and permeated by God the Holy Spirit, who is the "objective inwardness" of all consciousness.

T: I’m OK up to “and permeated by…” because that can end up meaning different things for different people, as I’m sure it would/does for you and me. We obviously emerge from the matrix of divine energies (Joseph Bracken), we’re relatively autonomous (as free as any created entity that depends upon that matrix can be), and that ‘self’ is non-divine (glad to hear that), and it subsists or is actual in conscious being.

I don’t buy the Galatians (“I, not I”), John (vine/branches), and Pauline (body of Christ) passages as technical metaphysical descriptions. You and all who attempt to wrestle the sort of metaphysics you do out of these descriptions make interpretive blunders. But never mind that.

D: Not a DIRECT identification. Identification through perichoretic indwelling and participation.

T: See, there ya go. You can’t NOT make the “identification.” Dang. It’s not an ‘identification’. Indwelling, yes. Grounding, yes. Emergent, yes. But none of those requires “identified as.”

D: And did you see everything I said about the "Vine is to Branches as "I, Christ" is to "I, not I, but Christ"? I think that should just about solve all your problems, Tom.

T: I don’t see these passages as metaphysical descriptions. I think you (and others) push them way too far.

T
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Tom
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This might be another mistake, because every author or book I suggest to you ends up fueling more debate. But I’ve been chatting with author/lecturer Christian de Quincey about this article of his (www.deepspirit.com/sys-tmpl/essays/). He definitely gets MY concerns and I think there’s room in his sort of intersubjectivity for me. You make your own judgment, D. I have his books on order. It might turn out that I disagree fundamentally with him.

Go to the link on his site there and download the second article “Intersubjectivity” (3 parts to it, get ‘em all). See what you think. THEN I’ll share some of what he shared with me personally.

T
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Tom
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Plus I begin traveling home tomorrow and will be out at least a week to ten days. Please ya'll, pray for my getting out of Iraq into Kuwait over the next 5 days especially. Travel is unpredictable and dangerous. I'd like to make it home for Xmas.

T
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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I will definitely pray for that, bro. And KEEP sending that stuff to me. Bro, there are NO WORDS that I have to articulate how God has used EVERY BOOK you've suggested to me. It's been LIFE TRANSFORMING. I firmly believe that the Spirit is working through our interaction...and your choices. It's so apparent. ;-)


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
God has been leading this thing from the beginning. But then again, why wouldn't we EXPECT that?


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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Tom
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I never gave you Eckhart. THAT guy is a straight up pantheist. Do even try to flex with me on that.

T
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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
He was a misunderstood mystic. For REAL!

As was Maximus. 

I'm just glad we ain't killin' people like that anymore.

 

 


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:19 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Actually, you never gave me ANY of the mystics, did you?  Hmm...well, thanks for THAT, Lord!
 
biggrin


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/8/2008 9:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I do think the "mysticism" line is what primarily causes our issues. But that's just me.

Otherwise, we seem to say the same things.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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