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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted Today 12:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
After seeing Brandon's comment on the recent political post by Greg on his blog, I went there to check out what I've missed for the last several weeks. I found these comments interesting (from

http://www.gregboyd.org/uncategorized/a-christus-victor-and-penal-substitution-view-of-the-atonement/):

It turned out that Adam, who had defended the view that Jesus’ work on the cross appeased the Father’s wrath, agreed with me that the Father wasn’t wrathful toward Jesus. It’s just that God’s wrath against sin was expressed by him delivering Christ up to the Powers in our place. Sin was judged and Christ was our substitute — hence, Penal Substitution. Adam informed me that this is basically the view of Karl Barth, expressed in his Church Dogmatics (which I will now certainly have to look into). Well, I replied, if that’s what you mean by the Penal Substitution view of the atonement, consider me a card carrying member!

And notice, this version of Penal Substitution is not only compatible with the Christus Victor view of the atonement (the view that the main thing Jesus did on Calvary was defeat the devil and free us from his oppression): it actually presupposes it. So, without retracting any of my criticism of the view that God needs to vent his wrath against Jesus in order to forgive us, maybe I can now espouse a Christus Victor Penal Substitution view of the atonement.

I'm not sure I follow his recent post on Obama, though. How can Greg, by his view, be happy that a professing Christian will take an oath to be the commander-in-chief of the American military unless Obama will command that military to cease all military action in the world? Can Obama's role as director of military hostilities be considered legitimate on Greg's view? Would Greg's view require Obama to do the least QUANTITY of harm to humans regardless of whether such a policy might result in greater harm to Americans, in particular? Or would America's role in the world possibly justify the perpetrating of greater harm, in the short run, to other nations to protect us so we can cause greater goods over the long run? And, if so, wouldn't that simply be consequentialism applied to the use of force?

I'm not sure I understand just what Greg believes on what he calls "violence." Does any one know whether he distinguishes between "violence" and "force" in some sense that I'm not understanding? It seems to me that some of his statements cover ALL physically forceful actions.


 

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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 11/9/2008 1:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hahaha! You just slam dunked Greg on Obama.

T
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 11/9/2008 5:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, you got him pretty good, S. You said...

I'm not sure I understand just what Greg believes on what he calls "violence." Does any one know whether he distinguishes between "violence" and "force" in some sense that I'm not understanding? It seems to me that some of his statements cover ALL physically forceful actions.

He doesn't have this down well. Before "Myth", I asked him about this with respect to Walter Wink. Even Wink himself hadn't really decided the line between "violence" and "force"...and I that made things a little more tricky. I told him he should think about it more. This is how Greg's idea actually works out to Christians not being part of any peacekeeping forces...like the police or the military.  Oh, well...


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 11/9/2008 5:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One Love: Before "Myth", I asked him about this with respect to Walter Wink. Even Wink himself hadn't really decided the line between "violence" and "force"...and I that made things a little more tricky. I told him he should think about it more.

Jeff: Thanks, D. That helps. If he's seeing some distinction between violence and force, then maybe he's seeing what I'm not. I'd love for him to explain how he works out the legitimacy of a christian being the commander-in-chief of the military. That would really go a long way towards understanding his position better.


 

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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 11/9/2008 5:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
S:
I'd love for him to explain how he works out the legitimacy of a christian being the commander-in-chief of the military. That would really go a long way towards understanding his position better.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. ;-) But, maybe you could email him for a response on his blog, perhaps.


God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am."

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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
 
   Posted 11/9/2008 4:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
He's inconsistent on this point. He came down to Truett a while back and my friend asked him point blank. He just dodged. I used to think he had a reason for delaying the punch line. Now, I just don't think he gets the joke: To call Jesus lord (not just the emptied-of-meaning religious-but-not-political version of the term), is to deny this title to others. You can't serve two masters.
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