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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 5:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | | First the clips...
Watch these two videos...first. They are clips from Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions, respectively. Later on, I'll post some thoughts I had involving the clips...
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | |
Did you see the clips first? If not, see them. If so, let's move on... Ok... In the Matrix Reloaded clip, Neo gets more insight into who he is and why he exists. The following is how I see interesting parallels with the mediatorial concept of Jesus. Neo seemed to have "two natures" in his "one person" Matrix/human: Neo was a human consciousness born as a human being into the Matrix, having the "headjacks" and the possibility of human non-being...a natural relationship to the Matrix existence. This gave him the ability to exist in the Matrix as a human being. Zion-ites couldn't do this. Other: Neo had an "other" consciousness transcendent of (and immanent within) the Matrix, having the "Source Code" (Logos?) of the Matrix as the "integral anomaly"...a natural relationship to the Source of the Matrix. This gave him his close relationship with the Machines and his ability to "see" Machine consciousnesses in the real world. Machine programs didn't have this relationship to the Source. So Neo was one person with two levels of consciousness. Without fusion or confusion. More importantly, he embodied the central issue of the whole thing: "choice"...which, according to the Architect, caused the "system anomaly." Ultimately, he had to make a choice about his own destiny, but this choice inherently involved the destiny of the further relationship between Machines and Humans. He could either choose to go back to the Source...or to go back to the Matrix. You see what he chose. This is what enabled him to do what he did in the second clip... In the Matrix Revolutions clip, Neo is having the final battle with Mr. Smith. We see that the Source (to which Neo was inherently linked as "the One" ) was able to "enter" the Matrix through Neo's personal being to end up defeating Mr. Smith from the inside, as it were. Mr. Smith, who had completely taken over the Matrix, could not affect the Source directly but COULD affect Neo himself because of his "natural link" to the Matrix as a human being born in the Matrix existence. Mr. Smith was able to take over Neo's human consciousness through assimilation. Now here's where things get interesting. Neo had to use "choice" to destroy the effects of broken choice: Self-surrender to "nothingness" (Mr. Smith) and the "Source" at the same time. Neo did things from his perspective "because I choose to." Neo recognized his power to go his own independent way...the power that Mr. Smith was using to bring everything to death. Neo used HIS power to go his own independent way...to follow his path as the One going into the "Source's way". In doing so, Mr Smith's influence was not only destroyed in Neo by the Source, but also in everyone else whom Mr. Smith had affected, saving both humans and machines.
I think all this reminds me of this...
...when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son (divine, "Source" ), born of a woman (human), born under the law (creaturely existence), to redeem those under the law (freedom from creaturely existence), that we might receive adoption to sonship (experience of divine life in creaturely existence).
Make sense?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 5:34:41 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 11/9/2008 6:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Cool, as far as film analogies go I guess. The problem is that one mind appears to be at work and apprehending and available in both worlds. What Neo knows outside the matrix he's conscious of inside the matrix, and visa versa. So the analogy doesn't help us understand two-minds view on Jesus' ignorance of some things and the Logos' omniscience.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom: Cool, as far as film analogies go I guess. The problem is that one mind appears to be at work and apprehending and available in both worlds. What Neo knows outside the matrix he's conscious of inside the matrix, and visa versa. So the analogy doesn't help us understand two-minds view on Jesus' ignorance of some things and the Logos' omniscience.I think this was dealt with in the Architect's speech. Neo, being the "integral anomaly" of the Matrix (basically an "incarnation" of the Logos of the Matrix), did have awareness of the Source and it's relationship to the Matrix...but it was largely UNCONSCIOUS and/or PRECONSCIOUS to his human ego consciousness. In other words, Neo's "Logos vision" was SUPER-CONSCIOUS to his conscious ego, on the borders of his human ego, impacting it. That's no problem.
 
Two realms of consciousness (two "natures," two "minds" )
One person (one bi-polar assymetrically unified personal being)
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 6:52:34 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 11/9/2008 7:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Lost me.
If most people understand it, cool. I don't.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 7:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Lost me.
If most people understand it, cool. I don't
Ok. The first thing that we have to acknowledge is that human egoic activity (including personal choice by the human ego) is NOT fully conscious of itself. There is such a thing as peripheral awareness, awareness that impacts a chooser's choices WITHOUT being recognized by the chooser. This is how some (much) of the activity of the superego and id is NOT in conscious awareness of the ego.
Using this understanding of how the human mind works (along with the belief that Jesus IS fully human with a fully human mind!), it's nothing to say that Jesus' human ego process has the peripheral awareness of Logos. It shows HOW Jesus could both have human ignorance (part and parcel of human ego development)...and also have the natural awareness of Logos, that would be impacting on the "borders" of Jesus' human ego consciousness.
Don't forget to click the picture links, Tom. They go to Wiki entries on "Defense Mechanisms" and "Ego, Id, and Superego"
Say, Jeff, is this making sense to YOU, man?
Here's something else that may help, Tom.
Let's say that, in Jesus, the "superego" is the Word/Logos impacting Jesus' ego...whereas the "id" is the inherited genetic memory he got from his human Mother, Mary. Do you see how some of the effects of the Word/Logos would be conscious...some would be PREconscious...and some would be UNconscious?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 7:07:30 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 8:16 AM (GMT -6) | | | Reposting from another thread...with amendments...
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Jesus' "id" may have corresponded to all of the genetic memory inheritances he got from Mary, the Theotokos, getting all the "good" and "bad" from that. (Instinctual [Moro reflex, grasping], etc.) He was in "fallen" human nature, remember. Jesus' "superego" may have corresponded to God's Word/Logos, as modeled for him and experienced in and through faithful parents (Joseph and Mary) and developing faith/life in Scripture. (This includes his messianic understanding [ ego ideal?]) Jesus' "ego" may have mediated these two realities, empowered and sustained by the Holy Spirit of God the Logos. If all this worked out, Jesus' "ego" would never be under self-condemnation...because Jesus' ego would never feel fundamental shame, absence, or separation from his Source. (God) Therefore, Jesus' mental energy would not be wasted upon defending himself from reality on any level. Moreover, He would live in the freedom and power of understanding himself being "God's Son" who could see the "You are gods" thing from a whole different perspective.
*****************************************
Every year Jesus' parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Festival, according to the custom. After the Festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And as Jesus grew up, he increased in wisdom and in favor with God and people.
**********************************
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread."
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'People do not live on bread alone.' "
The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours."
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' "
The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
God's Word was Jesus' of Nazareth's "conscience"! Psalm 119.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 7:23:18 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 11/9/2008 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Offer a semester course in it so I have a chance to get the terminology down. Maybe I'll grasp it by then.
Sure looks like we're dissecting things a lot.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Something else.
If you look at what's being described...then Scripture like Psalms 119 and Romans 12:1-2 take on increased meaning, IMO. Scriptural meditation (along with the rest of the life of faith) would affect the human super-ego and the "ego ideal" DIRECTLY. Meditation on the Word of God, empowered by the Uncreated Spirit of the Word/Logos works it's way into the "conscience" of the human "heart"
Formation of the superego
The superego forms as the child grows and learns parental and social standards. The superego consists of two structures: the conscience, which stores information about what is "bad" and what has been punished and the ego ideal, which stores information about what is "good" and what one "should" do or be. (Interestingly, the Freudian conscience became cognitive-behavioral therapist Albert Ellis' focus.)
Doesn't it all really go, Tom? What I mean is this: is this genuinely difficult to grasp...but I'm not seeing that?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 10:48:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 11/9/2008 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Nope. We are taking seriously the claim that Jesus is fully human. If we cannot talk about Jesus in terms of processes that we have every reason to believe occur in all developing human beings...
T: I get his being fully human. I'm just increasingly uncomfortable (with Corey) with how confident we are that we know what being human really entails. For example, it doesn't follow that whatever is a universal characteristic of human beings is an essential characteristic of human being. For example, it's universally characteristic of human beings that they are born on planet Earth. But that's certainly not essential to being human. That's an easy example. But I wouldn't be surprised if SOME of the psychological/soulish components and their capacities/limitations we take to be essential because they're universal turn out to be non-essential. I'm sure Jesus was fully human. I'm not sure exactly what 'human' is.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom: I get his being fully human. I'm just increasingly uncomfortable (with Corey) with how confident we are that we know what being human really entails. For example, it doesn't follow that whatever is a universal characteristic of human beings is an essential characteristic of human being. For example, it's universally characteristic of human beings that they are born on planet Earth. But that's certainly not essential to being human. That's an easy example. But I wouldn't be surprised if SOME of the psychological/soulish components and their capacities/limitations we take to be essential because they're universal turn out to be non-essential. I'm sure Jesus was fully human. I'm not sure exactly what 'human' is.The only thing we'd have to establish is whether or not it's reasonable to think the Jesus had a human mind/brain that would have an ego-development process using that mind/brain relationality... LIKE ALL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS with human mind/brains.
Is it reasonable to think that in your opinion, Tom?
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Every year Jesus' parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Festival, according to the custom. After the Festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And as Jesus grew up, he increased in wisdom and in favor with God and people.
-------------------------
Formation of the superego
The superego forms as the child grows and learns parental and social standards.(OL's Note: "Every year, Jesus' parents..." ) The superego consists of two structures: the conscience, which stores information about what is "bad" and what has been punished and the ego ideal, which stores information about what is "good" and what one "should" do or be. (OL's Note: Psalms 119*)
*9How can young people keep their way pure?
By guarding it according to your word.
10With my whole heart I seek you;
do not let me stray from your commandments.
11I treasure your word in my heart,
so that I may not sin against you.
12Blessed are you, O Lord;
teach me your statutes.
13With my lips I declare
all the ordinances of your mouth.
14I delight in the way of your decrees
as much as in all riches.
15I will meditate on your precepts,
and fix my eyes on your ways.
16I will delight in your statutes;
I will not forget your word.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 11:21:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Rachel. 
Hook me up real quick, lady.
Does any/all of this make sense to you? 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Damn, Tom. Is it really taking this long to ponder?
Lord, forgive my impatience...
The "J" 
You could help me draw all this up. A talk, class, seminar. Whatever you wanna call it. Start off targeting the Generation Xers and Mosiac. (the MTV generation) With the Matrix phenomenon...and all the neurophysiological/psychological information we have available to us now...we could make this whole thing more easily understandable. It would make SENSE to people, I think, about the theandric nature and work of Christ-the-Logos. And you have REAL teaching experience. You can rock this.
Let's do this. 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 12:16:34 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 1:46 PM (GMT -6) | |
We'd have to involve this sermon. Greg uses a different metaphor (Aslan) but having pretty much similiar meaning...
| 1/29/2006 - A Pigeon, a Lion and Deep Magic, Greg Boyd – sermon length is 39:38 minutes |
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God’s love and mercy for us is fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. Christ did not come to hold back the wrath of God; rather He came to deliver us from the bondage of Satan. Through sin, we are made slaves to Satan’s dominion. However, through Christ’s death on the cross, we are bought back from the power of sin and death. The sacrifices of the Old Testament remind us of the consequences of sin and point to a time when Christ would pay the price of sin for all who choose to believe in Him. |
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Audio - 4.64 mb
High-Quality Audio - 18.5 mb
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Presentation Slides
Covenant Group Study Guide
Individual Study Guide
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God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 11/9/2008 2:29 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm just deep in stuff here. We got new arrivals in and old teams ripping out (as of today). And that'll run for ten days before it slows down. I'm around.
I don't know that Rachel is stopping in here right now. She followed the UR thread a bit but then got busy with some High School stuff. We're talking via email about UR. I'm helping her with a presentation for her school on it. Already some are questioning her salvation. Yep. And you know I'm all over that. She's on fire for Jesus.
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One Love
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| Posted 11/9/2008 2:57 PM (GMT -6) | | | It just makes sense...the more and more I obsess about it. HA!
Imagine Mary and Joseph doing this...
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
Start children off on the way they should go (OL's note: Give that developing super-ego a truth-based context), and even when they are old they will not turn from it.
Proverbs 22:6
...and Jesus, Mary's Spirit-born son, relating to himself and others in that context. Then little boy Jesus reads, understands, and believes all kinds of Scripture like this...
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
Proverbs 3:5-6
The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
Cherish her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
She will give you a garland to grace your head
and present you with a glorious crown."
Proverbs 4:7-9
The father of a righteous child has great joy; a man who fathers a wise son rejoices in him.
Proverbs 23:24 (Jesus would want to please not only his earthly "father", but his Heavenly Father as well!)
How can young people keep their way pure?
By guarding it according to your word.
(Jesus, as a young person who loves God, would presumably want to keep himself pure.)
With my whole heart I seek you;
do not let me stray from your commandments.
I treasure your word in my heart,
so that I may not sin against you.
Blessed are you, O Lord;
teach me your statutes.
With my lips I declare
all the ordinances of your mouth.
I delight in the way of your decrees
as much as in all riches.
I will meditate on your precepts,
and fix my eyes on your ways.
I will delight in your statutes;
I will not forget your word.
Psalm 119:9-16
The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one's inmost being.
Proverbs 20:27 (Into your hands, I commit my what? Oh, that's for later.)
Question: Wouldn't we almost predict what we see in the account of the 12 year-old Jesus in the temple? Really think about it.
Every year Jesus' parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Festival, according to the custom. After the Festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And as Jesus grew up, he increased in wisdom and in favor with God and people.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 11/9/2008 2:07:04 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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