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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > FIGHT the Matrix Illusion of Self-Ownership and Self-Possesion!! | Forum Quick Jump
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Tom
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | D: Answer: I am who Christ within me says I am. Nothing more. Nothing less.
T: YES! In my mind part of who Christ tells us we are is that 'given' (sonship) that is commn to us all and part of it is Christ telling us what our free expression mean to him, how we bless him, etc. Part of the interchange is given, part is our experiencing Christ experience us. BOTH these aspects get "told" to us by Christ.
And whatever the history of a person's brain damage or amnesia might be, nobody who comes to and experiences Christ is entirely empty-handed when it comes to the latter, unique, aspect. No conscious being has ZERO perception of history, especially nobody who hears the gospel and responds to it. We can work this out, D. I know we can. No worries.
I think were you want to eventually go to is some sort of timeless view of divine-human relationality in the eschaton void of all sense of history. I don't think that's doable because I don't think it's possible. But again, no biggie.
D: This would be true for every non-incarnate human being. All this means that the "person" in the human being cannot be the biological hypostasis, because those contexts of relationships are extremely mutable and forgettable. The "person" USES the persona as it's context...but the two are not to be confused. T: Yes. D: Is there any element of human nature (being in the Image of God) that is transcendent of Space-Time? If so, what is that? T: I don't think there's anything that transcends time, period. Including God. All actualities are essentially temporal. I'm still on this side of that issue. I'll agree with Whitehead that time is just a consequence of God's existence. But I'm open on this. Again, nothing here to threaten our more fundamental agreement. Have we really found agreement? T Post Edited (Tom) : 12/17/2008 10:27:15 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Have we really found agreement?
Seems so to me, baby. 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Uh oh.
What happened?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:31 AM (GMT -6) | | No no. I meang "Dang" as in a GOOD Dang. Like, Dang, what took us so long.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | Oh...I see...
Ha!
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Tom
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm flying to Cairo tomorrow to spend a couple days with Jessy. Then HOME on Saturday night baby. Yeah.
Were you able to put together anything for you, me, and Greg? Anytime. Anyplace.
Pax,
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/17/2008 11:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
In my mind part of who Christ tells us we are is that 'given' (sonship) that is commn to us all and part of it is Christ telling us what our free expression mean to him, how we bless him, etc. Part of the interchange is given, part is our experiencing Christ experience us. BOTH these aspects get "told" to us by Christ.
'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
Good journeys to you. I'll try to hit at Greg later on tonight or tomorrow...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/17/2008 12:19 PM (GMT -6) | | I hope this doesn't hurt things...
Nothing hinders the soul so much in attaining to the knowledge of God as time and place. Therefore, if the soul is to know God, it must know Him outside time and place, since God is neither in this or that, but One and above them. If the soul is to see God, it must look at nothing in time; for while the soul is occupied with time or place or any image of the kind, it cannot recognize God.
Meister Eckhart
"The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Basically Eckhart was talking about our soul's tendencies towards trapping ourselves in created nature, the realm of biological hypostasis, which is in created "time and place." And asceticism and contemplation were the ways out of that trap. By contemplating the "logoi" (Maximus), time and place (and the biological hypostasis world) are participated in, yet TRANSCENDED at the same time, in and through the Spirit of Christ-the-Logos. Being IN the world, but not OF the world. The Christian "impossible possibility"
See also...
"Partakers of God (From Glory to Glory)"
Panayiotis Christou
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/17/2008 4:21:35 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/18/2008 3:55 AM (GMT -6) | | It's Christmas time, so now that we're finished our 18 month debate about divine and human personhood we should probably start arguing about something else, like the supernatural conception of Jesus in Mary?
After all we've said it would be REALLY interesting.
I was just thinking, D, lets assume the virgin birth (conception). Now, 'why' do we think this was necessary? The two traditional reasons are:
1) To avoid original sin being transmitted to Jesus via a man's sperm.
That's so ridiculous let's not even talk about it.
2) To avoid the coming into being of a separate human person or individual in addition to the Son.
But remember what we agreed on here:
Thus WE can be non-divine persons disposing of our unique and unrepeatable identities through human natural capacities, the act or content of which is ‘spirit’ (viz., a relational quality of life belonging to the person doing the disposing but disposed within the context of particular natural capacities) AND Christ can be a divine person disposing of his own unique and unrepeatable identity through TWO sets of natural capacities, one divine and one human. It’s just that on the divine side this quality just IS the Holy Spirit, eternally defined (two paragraphs ago). On the human side, however, it is the combined spiritual quality of life generated by the Son’s disposing of his identity in the flesh. No independent person generated there. In OUR case, however, God chooses not to insert himself personally, in the Son, into the process by which human identities emerge from the exercise of natural capacities in relation to others. That’s “let go” so that personal ‘others’ can come into being with whom God relates.
If something like this is the case, then Jesus being the Son doesn’t require a supernatural conception of Jesus in Mary. It could have occurred even had Joseph contributed his seed. See that? God would still simply “insert himself personally into the process by which identities emerge.” That doesn’t happen in the womb anyhow.
So what do we need a supernatural conception for?
Perhaps the clue is in the context of Isaiah:
3) “…as a sign…”
It wasn’t ontologically necessary. It was just a way to “announce” his coming, a “sign” to mark it as unique and draw attention to it. Had Joseph contributed his sperm you would have had the SAME incarnate Son, SAME hypostatic union. (That's more a question.) On the other hand, the birth narratives definitely tie virginal conception to the identity of the child: “…the Holy Spirit will overshadow you, so that the one born shall be called the Son of God.” SOMETHING rather ‘substantial’ or ‘material’ seems to be determining why virginal conception is necessary. What would that be given what we’ve said? What influence upon identity emergence does the contribution of male sperm make? Why would God's intervening AT THIS POINT be required to guarantee a particular outcome in terms of IDENTITY later on. See?
Just thinking out loud.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/18/2008 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Ekhart is wrong. But if you wanna believe that, fine. It doesn't change our agreement on the core stuff. Your believing the timeless stuff will make your view weaker and less coherent to me (atemporal personhood? Atemporal consciousness? Atemporal creative expression?), but it doesn't amount to a denial that what we've agreed on.
It's not about necessarily advocating timelessness per se, Tom. I know that just rubs you the wrong way. Just because there's imprecision is not reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. Eckhart really does align with the Hesychasts and others in thinking that the created web of energies that WE call "space-time" is the context of the biological hypostasis that we get trapped in. There would be no "biological hypostasis" if we didn't have created "space-time" as we know it in the universe. That's why meditation, contemplation, and centeredness in God are so important. Don't get caught up in the timeless language. If you want to use another term for what WE call created Space-Time as distinguished from "God's Uncreated Time" that's fine. But the main thing he's after is right on the money. In other words, a person can't be all up in "worldly time", living primarily in their biological hypostasis...and expect to experience God in a deeper way. Can't happen. This goes along with pretty much ALL the mystical data we have. (Check out Egan's book!)
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On the virgin birth.
I think that the parthogenesis of Mary by the Holy Spirit is to "seal the deal" to both Mary and Joseph about God being Jesus' true "Father". Regardless of what OTHER people may have thought, Mary and Joseph would have been CONVINCED that Jesus was "God's Baby", NOT theirs. Their sense of human ownership of the process and the end result would be nullified from the jump...which would not be a bad thing. Jesus' identity as being God's ACTUAL Son would be undeniable to them. And I'm sure this would go into how they would raise Jesus. And given the HUMAN REALITIES of how ego formation in the mind/brain works deeply through parental interaction, this would definitely be important! That's what makes the most sense to me.
Think about it. Jesus at 12 years old at the temple...
Mary: "Jesus, how could you worry your father and me like this? We're your PARENTS!
Jesus: "Who's my Daddy, again, Mom? What did YOU tell me about that? Who's House am I in, Mom?"
Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart.
Yeah...
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/18/2008 9:55:21 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/18/2008 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | On Time. We can at least say this: God's experience of "Uncreated Time" would not have any "space" to partially define its terms, like created time does, right? Whatever we say about the Uncreated Time that God experiences, it doesn't deal with "place" at all...were created time does. (God ad intra doesn't deal with light years or Daylight Savings Time ! ) So when the human spirit "lets go" of it's concepts of space and "clings to" the Holy Spirit, who transcends created space-time, what happens?
Actually, I think that's what Loder was trying to say. (He doesn't believe in divine timelessness either!)
In the ongoing interplay between the human spirit and the Holy Spirit, there is is a vital exchange--continuously alive, bringing forth fundamentally new orders of being and understanding. Yet the new orders do not violate or contravene the paradoxical unity of the two spirits. The kinetic moments of convergence presupposed by the model are a kind of epiclesis--the moment in the celebration of the Eucharist when by an act of the Holy Spirit the elements become the body and blood of Christ. Repeatedly enacted, the moment is a "leap" between the human and the Divine, the Divine and the human, which in all situations brings forth transformation--if not a transubstantiation--of the fallen orders of mind, life, and creation.
The final point to be stressed here is the twist [of the Mobius Strip.] As a physical model of the decisive kinetic moment, the twist depicts a temporal event via spatial terms but without spatializing it. Thus, the twist in the model bears a fundamental truth about the relationship between the two spirits: in this interplay, time eludes space and all its presumed determinants, and via transformation a new order of fundamental determinants emerges. In the context of irreversible thermodynamics it is not time per se that is irreversible, but time's determinants. The fallen and shattered teacup can't reassemble itself on the table; the filmstrip of events does not run backward. However, time stripped of its determinants (as can only happen in reflective human consciousness, an inveterably "open system") appears to be reversible in the spontaneous creation of a new order of determinants.
Theologically, the experience of that "reversibility" in faith is a new being in Christ. However, as we will see, this notion involves "God's time." In this context, what appears to be reversibility may instead be highly accelerated motion toward the eschatological future in Christ--a wrinkle in time and foretaste of the redemption of all things.
James Loder, The Knight's Move. 121-122.
I know that it's hard to understand Loder...but I hope this one's relatively clear. Long story short. In mystical contemplation, "time" is a shared reality of both Holy Spirit and human spirit, where "spatialization" is not. When we pull ourselves away from the arena of the biological hypostasis (created "space-time"), we are thrusted into "God's Time"...and into the "eschata." Again, this goes right along with the mystics...which, from his book, Loder read very well! What's interesting to note is that ONLY the human spirit (in "natural congeniality" with the Holy Spirit) enables human beings to transcend Created Space-Time, not those dimenstions of human nature that are contextually bound by Created Space-Time...like ego formation in the mind/brain unity.
Make sense?
So, for clarification, I don't believe in "timelessness" (as in God having absolutely no temporal existence) more than I DO believe that God's ad intra existence is utterly beyond created Space-Time.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/18/2008 6:57:23 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/18/2008 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Now, this is interesting. If the human ideal is to transcend/transform the biological hypostasis through becoming Spirit-born "persons" (I'd say Spirit-born "gods" [Ps 82, John 10]...but I'm crazy like that. ) which are NOT to be identified with biological difference...
Doesn't this make SOOOOO much more sense of Galatians 3-4?
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
What I am saying is that as long as heirs are underage they are no different from slaves, although they own the whole estate. They are subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by their fathers. So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer slaves, but God's children; and since you are his children, he has made you also heirs.
I also think about...
...whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
My take:
Slaves to "elemental principles/forces" <=> humans "trapped" in biological hypostasis mode; bluepills/coppertops
God's Children <=> humans in ecclesial hypostasis mode; redpills/freed people
Made possible by the human spirit, which naturally transcends human familial ties and enculturation (Jew/Gentile), human power structures/status, (slave/free), or even human biological difference (male/female)...and is the "organ of faith" for spirit-to-Spirit communication with God. The natural openness that we have to relationship with God.
And let's not forget the biblical link between human beings being called "gods" by God Himself...and humans being children/sons of God. That's why the EO have no problem with the language of "God became human so that humanity could become god." We could even say this: God's Divine Personal Presence became human...so that humanity could be raised up from animality into the divine reality of personhood."
Whacha think?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/18/2008 8:01:48 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/19/2008 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Christ-the-Logos within: Who are you?
Believing Heart: I am who you say I am. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Christ-the-Logos within: I say this about you: I am your Life...and you are my Wife. (John 15:1-17; Rev 21:9)
Believing Heart: May it be to me according to your word. (Luke 1:38)
Both: Amen.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/19/2008 9:59:59 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/19/2008 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Maybe we all just need to watch Pinnochio all over again.
Put away self-centeredness and lying and become a real person through Christ, who is our life...not just a self-referential, talking, walking "billboard" of human enculturation striving for personhood, yet failing miserably. (mere existence vs. authentic existence)
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Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/19/2008 10:20:43 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/23/2008 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | I'll try to catch up. Just got in. Got caught in the weather in JFK flying in from Cairo. My flight to Minny was canceled. Slept on the floor for three days trying to get home on standby. Delta was HORRIBLE to people. I'm never flying them again. They set new standards for incompetence and irresponsibility. What a joke of an airline.
about time, D. I don't have any third category to add to 'temporal' and 'atemporal'. You want to say it seems that God's time (and the time in which we come to exist as glorified) is neither. I can't imagine what that might be. Atemporal I understand. Temporal I understand. An existence which is neither? Sorry.
Merry Christmas all!
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 1/1/2009 10:57 AM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...
On the time thing. Clarification Basically, I'm saying that God's time (the temporality that God experiences sans the created order) transcends created Space-time (the temporality that exists in our created order). I'm not saying that there is some "third category."
Perhaps "third category" would be wrong because it places the newly-considered on-paar with the others,lessoning its difference and making recognitionof its similarities more problematic -- and for that reason should be avoided.
Look below for a use of the phrasing "a fourth dimension":
Here is an Orthodox perspective, which I like because it follows my own intuition about sacramental spirituality and how it works in a holistic, organic way. It’s from the book For the Life of the World, by Orthodox theologian Alexander Schmemann:
The liturgy of the Eucharist is best understood as a journey or procession. It is the journey of the Church into the dimension of the Kingdom.
. . . Our entrance into the presence of Christ is an entrance into a fourth dimension which allows us to see the ultimate reality of life. it is not an escape from the world, rather it is the arrival at a vantage point from which we can see more deeply into the reality of the world.
. . . The early Christians realized that in order to become the temple of the Holy Spirit they must ascend to heaven where Christ has ascended. . . . This ascension was the very condition of their mission in the world, of their ministry to the world. . . . When, after this “liturgy of ascension,” they returned into the world, their faces reflected the light, the “joy and peace” of that Kingdom and they were truly its witnesses. They brought no program and no theories; but wherever they went, the seeds of the Kingdom sprouted, faith was kindled, life was transfigured, things impossible were made possible. . . . In church today, we so often find we meet only the same old world, not Christ and His Kingdom. We do not realize that we never get anywhere because we never leave any place behind us.
“An entrance into a fourth dimension which allows us to see the ultimate reality of life.” I agree. It’s been my intuition that the greater the impact you want to have on the world, the more you need to immerse yourself in Christ – who is a whole different dimension, and allows you to see things in a whole different way. Our work is supernatural; we are citizens of heaven, not of earth; in the world, but not of it.
How many of us, I wonder, have really made a serious effort to leave the world behind, and ascend to heaven, on a daily basis, through prayer, mass attendance, even the way we work and spend our time, so that when we return to earth, our faces are irradiated with the light of heaven, and we bear the kingdom in us?
It is a false dichotomy to say we either focus on going to heaven, or focus on spreading the kingdom. We go to heaven, so that we can bring the Kingdom to earth. It is Jacob's ladder embodied in us, with angels ascending and descending upon it.
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One Love
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| Posted 1/1/2009 4:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for that, Bruce. Good stuff!
I'm on this...
"...the greater the impact you want to have on the world, the more you need to immerse yourself in Christ – who is a whole different dimension, and allows you to see things in a whole different way."
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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