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|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/14/2009 7:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | | I just had a thought.
Maybe we should ask these questions:
1) Can the human person authentically love God without God's direct empowerment? If so, how?
2) Can the human person authentically love other humans without God's direct empowerment? If so, how?
3) Can the human person authentically love themselves without God's direct empowerment? If so, how?
If we answer "no" to all three, would this lean towards saying that humanity is NOT the source of it's own love...even just towards each other in a non-religious context? What I would see is that human spirits cannot generate ANY of their own love; they can only receive God's love and, totally empowered by God, reciprocate that gift of love to certain degrees (or refrain from reciprocating.)
Tom, whatcha think?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/14/2009 7:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | I could just ask you the question, Tom: Do you believe that created persons can generate their own "works of love" without God's direct empowerment in said persons? Please recall that as Peyton says in "Light from the Christian East", Grace is "God Himself, working within us."
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/14/2009 7:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thought from this:
Perhaps, our own generation of human love is truly a stewardship from God (whose very being IS Love.) We don't own anything that we "have" in this world...and we never have. We've been trapped in the illusion of total autonomy...mad long. We THINK that it's in our own power that we love others, even the little conditional love that we do...but it's never been that way. It all belongs to God.
Hey, PARENTS! Think about those teenagers that want their privacy and want you to get out of THEIR room...which happens to exist in YOUR house that YOU are paying for, with all the REST of the bills. Do your kids truly "own" that room? Hmmm. But you let them FEEL like they do, don't you? Granting them a good level of felt autonomy and personal responsibility ALONG WITH a sense of individuality and privacy. But, parents, wouldn't you love it if the kids SAW that their individual freedoms (like having your own room) was a continually-given GRACE to them, and they took it accordingly, seeing their regulation of "their" room as INTERDEPENDENT with your regulation of all of the house's needs. A kind of unity in the home with the diversity of room (and self) regulation.
Hmmm...analogy?
Come on, Tom. I know that you...of ALL people...gotta feel me on the above!
PS: I'm thinking this is why all of our righteousness of as of filthy rags. Without God's righteousness, we'd naturally gravitate towards the nothingness from whence we came.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 3/14/2009 7:57:21 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 3/14/2009 11:16 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
D:1) Can the human person authentically love God without God's direct empowerment?
T: Define direct empowerment. But just guessing, I’d say no. No created thing can dispose of itself apart from God’s sustaining presence. If that’s what you mean, then no, we can’t love God without God enabling us to do so.
D: 2) Can the human person authentically love other humans without God's direct empowerment?
T: No, for the same reason.
D: 3) Can the human person authentically love themselves without God's direct empowerment? If so, how?
T: No, for the same reason.
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D: If we answer "no" to all three, would this lean towards saying that humanity is NOT the source of its own love...?
T: We’re the source of that free determination without which God’s enabling grace produces nothing. Think necessary and sufficient causes. God’s grace is a necessary cause. Our choice is a necessary cause. Neither alone is sufficient to produce anything. Together however, both constitute the sufficient cause of our loving God and others. So we’re not a sufficient cause or the sole source of our own love, but we are a final arbiter in determine that part which God wills us to play. He sustains and empowers our playing it, yes. And in a general sense he’s the source of it all as creation. Of course. I just would never agree to your language (“we’re not the source of our own love”) because it mistakenly thinks of explanations in terms of a single source (one ‘cause’). Why cannot God be the ultimate source of all created being (of course God is), and we be a created source of free determination? That makes us “a” source, not ultimate in the divine sense, but real enough to earn us a seat at the table.
D: What I would say is that human spirits cannot generate ANY of their own love, they can only receive God's love and, totally empowered by God, reciprocate that gift of love to certain degrees (or refrain from reciprocating.)
T: Define “totally.” If we’re free to reciprocate (or refrain), then we’re sources of that free exercise of will. God sustains it, but that doesn’t make us any less a source of free determination.
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D: I could just ask you the question, Tom: Do you believe that created persons can generate their own "works of love" without God's direct empowerment in said persons?
T: We can’t even sin without God’s sustaining grace empowering our natural faculties in OUR free disposal of the same. Think about THAT.
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D: Perhaps, our own generation of human love is truly a stewardship from God (whose very being IS Love.) We don't own anything that we "have" in this world...and we never have. We've been trapped in the illusion of total autonomy...mad long. We THINK that it's in our own power that we love others, even the little conditional love that we do...but it's never been that way. It all belongs to God.
Tom: It all belongs to God in “a” very important sense—creation. But it belongs to us in another/different but very important sense—stewardship, like you said. If we’re stewards, we may not ‘own’, but we are ‘responsible’. And you only get that sort of responsibility if we’re ‘sources’ of that for which we are held responsible, over which God made us stewards.
I totally get your wanting to bury the sort of “total autonomy” and individualistic self-reliance of the modern era. I’m right there smashing it with you. Just watch out for the collateral damage as the wrecking ball comes crashing through the structure.
Rachmaninov’s 3rd Concerto in Dm is blasting on the speakers right now! Wow! Gotta go.
T | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 3/14/2009 1:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: It all belongs to God in “a” very important sense—creation. But it belongs to us in another/different but very important sense—stewardship, like you said. If we’re stewards, we may not ‘own’, but we are ‘responsible’. And you only get that sort of responsibility if we’re ‘sources’ of that for which we are held responsible, over which God made us stewards.
Fowler. The Responsibility of Man. I'm with this...totally.
Recognizing that our responsibility is to make choices of faith which are receptive to the activity of God in our lives, we must ever be diligent and discerning to see the practical implications of such and to avoid the abusive extremes.
A dependent attitude of faith without disciplined activities of faith can produce passivism and acquiescence. Some Christians have improperly decided that the Christian life is all God's responsibility and that they are not responsible for anything. They sit back, twiddle their thumbs, and expect God to do it all. James seems to have been confronting both the fallacious ideas of faith as orthodox belief and faith as passive inaction when he explained that "faith, if it has no works, is dead, by itself" (James 2:17). If faith is "our receptivity of God's activity," and there is no divine activity, then there is no faith! Faith is not just our receptivity of God's ideology or moral code, but of His active expression of His character in our behavior, for which we are responsible to consent and to make choices to be engaged therein. If there is no outworking of the activity of God, then faith has been voided and substituted with epistemology or passivism.
...
Our Christians lives are to be lived in the spontaneity of trusting the life of Jesus Christ to be lived out through us. To be paralyzed with the uncertainty of paranoia preempts the faithful receptivity of God's activity. It has been said that "you can't steer a ship unless it is moving," so to avoid being "dead in the water" in our Christian lives we must take the next "step of faith" and "walk in the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16,25). If we are confident of our new identity as "Christ-ones," we can behave like who we have become by being receptive to the activity of Christ's expression of His life and character through us.
The responsibility of the Christian is faith! "In like manner as we received Christ Jesus, we are to walk in Him," by faith (Col. 2:6). We "live by faith in the Son of God" (Gal. 2:20). God never commands us to do anything, but what he provides complete sufficiency for such by His grace. He is the dynamic of His own demands! We are only responsible to be and to do what God wants to be and do in us today. Whatever behavior is not derived from the "receptivity of God's activity" is necessarily sinful. "Whatever is not of faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23), for it will inevitably express a character and activity that is not derived from God and therefore cannot be consistent with His character.
Christians are responsible to respond to God's grace with a volitional receptivity and availability of faith which allows God's activity to be expressed in their behavior, the life of Jesus to be lived out through them by the empowering of the Holy Spirit, unto the glory of God.
God's Grace (inseperable from the Holy Spirit of Christ) and human receptivity to God's Grace (inseparable from the human spirit) is the necessary and sufficient means for the divine life to indwell human existence.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 3/14/2009 1:13:17 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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