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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/3/2009 10:50 PM (GMT -6)

"The Inner Kingdom "
Kallistos Ware
Chapter 7: Silence in Prayer--The Meaning of Hesychia
Pages 89-110 (The WHOLE CHAPTER's there!)

Please read...as you have time.

It's real.

----------------------------------

"Hesychia is to stand before God in unceasing worship. Let the remembrance of Jesus be united to your breathing, and then you will know the value of hesychia."
St. John Climacus

---------------------------------

Posted By : One Love - 4/18/2009 12:10 PM

Here's a helpful technique, I think.

Whenever you think about it...use your breathing. Mentally say "Spirit of Jesus" while exhaling, and "Come!" while inhaling.

So everytime you breathe, you say "Come, Spirit of Jesus, Come..."

It helps me to really imagine the One Holy "Breath" of God "in-spiring" my entire being as I "re-spire" the one "breath" of the Earth's atmosphere. Actually, I take it as a memory helper for epiclesis. Just as my body cannot be sustained without the Earth's breath, so also my humanity itself cannot be sustained without God's Breath, the Spirit of Jesus. In my mind's eye, I partake in Christ's actual reality as I "take him in" by faith...with every breath.

Whatcha think? :-)

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/3/2009 11:11:02 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 5/3/2009 10:59 PM (GMT -6)

You believe me, right, Tom? This is ME talkin' to you, dawg. Same ol' TGIF pahtna... icon_brows2

Am I making sense?

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/3/2009 11:09:22 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 6:51 AM (GMT -6)

Direct experiential knowledge of the territory is a deeper and truer knowledge than knowledge of the same territory gained through the reading of a map, though the latter isn't FALSE. It's just second-order stuff. We make this distinction all the time, not just with God. SOME sorts of knowledge can't be had through propositions (what 'sweet' and 'sour' are, what sex is like, and all the "what it's like to..." sorts of experiences). Our destiny is to experience God, and live his life, forever exploring the endless territory that God is.

Yes, some day we won't need maps anymore.

If this is all you're saying, then who would disagree? This is what keeps tripping me up. If this is all you're saying, then what's new here? I mean it bro. This is not new to me...at all. But it seems brand new to you. Why do you think it doesn't make sense? Why do you wonder whether I or any body else would not believe this? If there really is something to disagree over here, then you must be saying something more that I'm not seeing.

Tom

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 5/4/2009 8:44 AM (GMT -6)

T: Our destiny is to experience God, and live his life, forever exploring the endless territory that God is.

C: Simply beautiful.

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/4/2009 8:50 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Direct experiential knowledge of the territory is a deeper and truer knowledge than knowledge of the same territory gained through the reading of a map, though the latter isn't FALSE. It's just second-order stuff. We make this distinction all the time, not just with God. SOME sorts of knowledge can't be had through propositions (what 'sweet' and 'sour' are, what sex is like, and all the "what it's like to..." sorts of experiences). Our destiny is to experience God, and live his life, forever exploring the endless territory that God is.

Yes, some day we won't need maps anymore.

Can human beings who believe in Christ experience this reality IN THIS LIFE? If so, how does this effect our thoughts on theodicizing's (relative) importance?

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 9:32 AM (GMT -6)

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/4/2009 9:32 AM (GMT -6)

Whole thread

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 9:34 AM (GMT -6)

At the same time, D, reserve SOMETHING for the eschaton, OK? Glorification? Don't over-eschatologize. But the same SORT of thing is ours today that will be ours, in perfection, THEN.

T

One Love
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Posted 5/4/2009 9:35 AM (GMT -6)

D: Can human beings who believe in Christ experience this reality IN THIS LIFE?

T: Why of course! What else is salvation, regeneration, justification, sanctification, infilling of the Spirit, and on and on? Those are experiences of God, not propositions (though we map it out for others and ourselves so we can communicate to each other about it). But when the Spirit of God consoles and embraces some suffering person, or inspires them, or speaks to their mind and impresses some thought or direction upon them...that's territory. It certainly ain't no map!

I'm not talking just about God working salvifically in the human person. Of course, God does that. I talking this: Can a Christian in this earthly life reach a dimension of experiencing Divine Presence such that theodicies are unnecessary for them at best? Some people believe that we can never really experience theoria (or the like) in this earthly existence, only post-glorification. I want to know what you think about it.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2009 9:45:29 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 5/4/2009 9:39 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
At the same time, D, reserve SOMETHING for the eschaton, OK? Glorification? Don't over-eschatologize. But the same SORT of thing is ours today that will be ours, in perfection, THEN.

The Transfiguration of the human being, Jesus, ANTEDATED his death, resurrection, and ascension. What does that say about the DESIGNED capacity of the human nature to "radiate" Divine Glory through the power of the Holy Spirit? Plenty, I think...

Is shining with divine glory to be reserved for the eschaton only? (See some EO saints and their experiences with "The Shine" )

----------------------------------------------------------

The doctrine entertained by the Hesychasts, as to the experience of a vision of divine radiance as the goal of Hesychast practice, was that this light is the same manifested to Jesus' disciples on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration. (OL: Holy Spirit's working) This experience is referred to as theoria. This Barlaam held to be polytheistic, inasmuch as it postulated two eternal (ousia) substances, essences, natures, beings, a visible (hypostases and energies) and an invisible (ousia), God.

Gregory Palamas defended Hesychasm in the 1340s at three different synods in Constantinople, and he also wrote a number of works in its defense. In these works, Gregory Palamas uses a distinction, already found in the 4th century in the works of the Cappadocian Fathers, between the energies or operations (Gr. energeies) of God and the essence (ousia) of God. Gregory taught that the energies or operations of God were uncreated. He taught that the essence of God can never be known by his creature even in the next life, but that his uncreated energies or operations can be known both in this life and in the next and convey to the Hesychast in this life and to the righteous in the next life a true spiritual knowledge of God (theoria). In Palamite theology, it is the uncreated energies of God that illumine the Hesychast who has been vouchsafed an experience of the Uncreated Light.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2009 9:57:39 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 5/4/2009 9:42 AM (GMT -6)

And about that "overeschatologizing" thing. It's ALL the "acquisition of the Holy Spirit", regardless of the dimension of that reality is perceived by the believer. Whatever divine reality we don't participate in NOW is NOT the fault of the Spirit with whom we've been sealed, but largely our own unbelief.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 9:46 AM (GMT -6)

I don't see why one's experience of God in this life can't get to the place where theodicies are unnecessary TO HIM/HER (i.e., the one experiencing God). Of course!

And how could I tell another person that SHE/HE needs a particular theodicy (or any theodicy at all)? That's dumb. The sorts of questions an individual NEEDS or DOESN'T NEED to ask God is between that person and God. If eventually our EXPERIENCE OF GOD will make theological inquiry superfluous (i.e., in heaven), why not suppose that can show up now? Sure.

But if that person wants to live in a world of hurting people who have honest questions and who aren't as spiritual as they could be, then that person will want to know how to help people find SOME answers, enough to get people to open up to the possibility of experiencing God. Wouldn't you agree?

T

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 9:56 AM (GMT -6)

Dude, I don't think you can just draw a straight line from Jesus' tranfiguration on the Mount to the resurrected-glorified body. White light? Shinning? That's it? Whatever shines is as glorified as it's ever going to get? You really know all there is to know about all this?

Come on. 1Cor. 15.35-58. You don't see anything 'eschatological' in this passage re: the destiny of human embodiment. Each individual gets to decide when he inherits his glorified/spiritual body?

Why don't you just zap yourself on over here to Iraq and visit with me? Bring some cigars.

T

One Love
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Posted 5/4/2009 10:05 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Why don't you just zap yourself on over here to Iraq and visit with me? Bring some cigars.

Teleportation? If God wills. All things are possible with God.

As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?" And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/4/2009 10:09 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
I don't see why one's experience of God in this life can't get to the place where theodicies are unnecessary TO HIM/HER (i.e., the one experiencing God). Of course!

Excellent. biggrin

-----------------------------------------

Tom:
If eventually our EXPERIENCE OF GOD will make theological inquiry superfluous (i.e., in heaven), why not suppose that can show up now? Sure. But if that person wants to live in a world of hurting people who have honest questions and who aren't as spiritual as they could be, then that person will want to know how to help people find SOME answers, enough to get people to open up to the possibility of experiencing God. Wouldn't you agree?

The answers we provide are our LIVES, lives that demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. The greatest help one can be for another is to allow Christ's life within them to shine at all times. Christ knows what to do from there...and we trust that.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 10:12 AM (GMT -6)

Let me say it this way. The eschatological is not subject to death. That’s Paul’s point in 1Cor 15. The “spiritual” body cannot die. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Do you disagree?

So to inherit the Kingdom (in its unabashed eschatological fulness) IS to conquer death in one’s body. Hence, Jesus’ body at the transfiguration (however shinny) is not the same glorified body as his raised body. The previous was (however shinny) still a mortal body subject to death. The latter raised body was not. Whatever shinning you enjoy in this life, I congratulate you, but it remains the case that you're mortal. Someday that body will die. But your resurrected body will not be (as was your briefly shinning body in this world) subject to death. There are dimensions of experiencing the kingdom not open to us THIS SIDE OF the grave. That's what I'm saying.

Until our bodies are no longer subject to death, they aren’t what they shall be, and no matter how brightly you can get it to shine in this world, if your body is subject to death (and it IS), it’s not all God means it to be. There is still more ‘eschatologically speaking’ out there for you. So for me to say Jesus’ earthly body at the transfiguration was ‘essentially’ glorified (i.e., was on the mount all that it was after he was raised) is an over-realized eschatology. I'd say these were NOT identical embodied states. Jesus’ body was subject to death (i.e., could die, i.e., mortal) prior to his resurrection (after meeting with Elijah and Moses on the mount); it wasn’t afterwards.

Is this what you mean by experiencing Christ in this life SO intimately? That we glorify our bodies and become immortal in this life prior to death and irrespective of the Parousia?

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 10:14 AM (GMT -6)

D: Teleportation? If God wills. All things are possible with God. "As they traveled along the road..."

T: Yes yes, Philip.

But unlike Philip, when you show up here, show up in a glorified, immortal, 'spiritual' (1Cor 15) body. Do that for me.

T

One Love
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Posted 5/4/2009 10:16 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Dude, I don't think you can just draw a straight line from Jesus' tranfiguration on the Mount to the resurrected-glorified body. White light? Shinning? That's it? Whatever shines is as glorified as it's ever going to get? You really know all there is to know about all this?

You seem to be missing the point. The "shining" is just demonstrative of humanity totally suffused in Divine Presence, radiating divine glory AS a human being. This is just like the metal sword that, when suffused in fire, shines with light not natural to its metallness.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 10:17 AM (GMT -6)

D: The answers we provide are our LIVES, lives that demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.

T: That's all? We can't SAY anything? Words aren't part of the witness of our lives. The answers/explanations we give to honest seekers can't constitute the fruit of the Spirit?

Dang.

D: The greatest help one can be for another is to allow Christ's life within them to shine at all times.

T: What's the even MEAN, D? The greatest help we can give is to SHINE? What's 'shine' mean? But more speicifically, does shinning exclude speaking? If not, does speaking exclude providing answers to questions?

D: Christ knows what to do from there...and we trust that.

T: Of course Christ knows what to do, and we trust that. Sure. But sometimes Christ has us (who no longer need to hang out at the theodicy watering holes seeking answers) actually OPEN our mouths and offer answers (reasons, rationale, explanations, and yes, theodicy) to others. Do you dispute the fact that Christ directs people to so speak?

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 5/4/2009 10:42:14 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 10:20 AM (GMT -6)

D: You seem to be missing the point. The "shining" is just demonstrative of humanity totally suffused in Divine Presence, radiating divine glory AS a human being. This is just like the metal sword that, when suffused in fire, shines with light not natural to its metallness.

T: I'm not missing MY point, which is...however "suffused" it is, if it's MORTAL, it's fundamentally different from a "suffusion" that renders the same body IMMORTAL. Jesus' body on the mount was NOT the latter. I'm trying to avoid an over-realized eschatology...that is, avoid claiming that we can or do experience as mortals in this life the FULFILLMENT of the immortal life of the age to come. Do you dispute this distinction?

T

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 10:24 AM (GMT -6)

Your mortal body can in this life be as suffused with the presence of God as any mortal body in this life can be. Can our mortal bodies 'shine'? Heck, why not? Moses' face shone (and that within the confines an Old Testament understanding and relationship).

Sure. You can shine. Shine on.

There.

Is this maximal level of suffusion possible for mortal bodies (am I really talking like this?) identical/equivalent to the suffusion that "glorifies" our mortal bodies and makes them immortal? Obviously NOT, overwise they'd be glorified and immortal. But they're NOT. So...THERE'S MORE eschatologically speaking awaiting our mortal bodies. HOWEVER MUCH they may shine in this world, there's more to come.

Do you amit this distinction?

T

Post Edited (Tom) : 5/4/2009 10:30:41 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/4/2009 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

T: Direct experiential knowledge of the territory is a deeper and truer knowledge than knowledge of the same territory gained through the reading of a map, though the latter isn't FALSE. It's just second-order stuff.

C: Yay! THIS is why I keep harping on Plantinga's "properly basic beliefs".

T: Corey, this may help me understand Plantinga's idea for the first time. So, would I be right in describing a "properly basic belief" as a pre-linguistic intuition or (even) capacity for God? In other words, the territory of divine being and the territory of human being are compatible and the latter is sustained by and destined for the former. This is ALL pre-linguistic.

Heck, I'm not wording it right. I don't get how just saying this means believing in God on the second-order level is properly basic. Does properly basic mean something like "fit to order"? Or does it mean "can't be defended in second-order terms"?

T

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/4/2009 11:42 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Is this maximal level of suffusion possible for mortal bodies (am I really talking like this?) identical/equivalent to the suffusion that "glorifies" our mortal bodies and makes them immortal? Obviously NOT, overwise they'd be glorified and immortal. But they're NOT. So...THERE'S MORE eschatologically speaking awaiting our mortal bodies. HOWEVER MUCH they may shine in this world, there's more to come.

Do you admit this distinction?

Yes, there is a deeper experience of God's Presence possible, post-consumation, etc. I don't disagree with that. As long as we admit that neither Enoch nor Elijah (who was present at the Transfiguration of Jesus on Mt. Tabor) who somehow ascended into the Presence of God WITHOUT DEATH. In other words, there is a transfiguration/transformation of human "flesh" (via the Holy Spirit) into something compatible with Divine Fire even without death.

You will grant that, right?

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2009 11:46:34 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/4/2009 11:50 AM (GMT -6)

D: Christ knows what to do from there...and we trust that.

T: Of course Christ knows what to do, and we trust that. Sure. But sometimes Christ has us (who no longer need to hang out at the theodicy watering holes seeking answers) actually OPEN our mouths and offer answers (reasons, rationale, explanations, and yes, theodicy) to others. Do you dispute the fact that Christ directs people to so speak?

Christ can (and does) speak volumes in silence.This is not say that Christ won't direct people to do some kind of apologia or something. Of course, he may. It is to say that Christ's Presence is what's to be sought centrally and totally at all times, not opportunities for apologetics or theodicy per se.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/4/2009 11:53 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
I'm not missing MY point, which is...however "suffused" it is, if it's MORTAL, it's fundamentally different from a "suffusion" that renders the same body IMMORTAL. Jesus' body on the mount was NOT the latter. I'm trying to avoid an over-realized eschatology...that is, avoid claiming that we can or do experience as mortals in this life the FULFILLMENT of the immortal life of the age to come. Do you dispute this distinction?

Was there a "suffusion" of God's Grace that made Elijah's body immortal without death?

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

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