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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/4/2009 4:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ascension   27:34

 

Fr. Thomas rejoices in the enthronement of the crucified One, raised and glorified.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/5/2009 5:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christ did NOT go "up" like a helium balloon, but rather was enveloped in a cloud and vanished. He will come back the same way.


(o)

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Tom
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   Posted 6/5/2009 7:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why is it important that Jesus not be thought of as ascending "up" into the sky?

Tom
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Starkman
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   Posted 6/5/2009 7:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What I want to know is if His voice got super squeaky high when He ascended!


 

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Tom
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   Posted 6/6/2009 2:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I mean, wouldn't the language suggest Jesus' position and movement relative to the observers? It's said that "after Jesus had spoken to them, he ascended into heaven where a cloud received him," and "you'll see him descend in like fashion" (read the passages last night and am quoting from memory only). So this "ascending" and "descending" don't reflect anything real in the experience of those present? Jesus was just standing right next to them when a cloud floated by or appeared on ground level and Jesus stepped into it and vanished?

Tom
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 8:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: Why is it important that Jesus not be thought of as ascending "up" into the sky?
Bruce: "Up is certainly useful imagery-- and the did look up trying to find him after he disappeared, for he had been raised up.. But the emphasis for me right now is that he was changed.

Bruce: Hopko pointed out that the ascension was Christ's "enthronement." Rising with respect to onlookers fits that. But the enthronement is one of status. He ascended, and hyumanity does so with him. He is glorified, and we are will be glrorified. He is glorified, and we will be glorified.

Bruce: Hopko poiints out that the icon of the ascension is about three quarters filled showing the Church--Christ'a Body, and a quarter Christ. Hopko also points out that the "Mandorella" shown means that the event could ONLY be seen by those with tyes of faith -- like the Transfiguration, or hearing the words at Christ's baptism! Som e sheperd near by would have seen Christ before his ascension, but not the ascension itself.


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 8:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=78


I'll look at this in a while.


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 8:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh, "heaven" is not "up."


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Tom
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   Posted 6/6/2009 9:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bruce: Oh, "heaven" is not "up."

Tom: Clouds are.

Bruce: Hopko pointed out that the ascension was Christ's "enthronement." Rising with respect to onlookers fits that. But the enthronement is one of status. He ascended, and hyumanity does so with him. He is glorified, and we are will be glrorified. He is glorified, and we will be glorified.

Tom: So let me understand you Bruce. You're saying Jesus' physical body did NOT ascend off the ground at all. Instead, he was just standing there and a cloud floated by or appeared on ground level and Jesus stepped into it and vanished. Is that what you're saying? And that it happened this way AND NOT in a more traditionally imagined 'ascension' into the clouds is required by the fact that this event constitutes Jesus' enthronement.

Is that what you're saying?

I get that the ascension was Christ's enthronement, etc. No denying that. What I don't get is why we have to say this excludes Jesus' physical ascension, why Jesus has to vanish into a cloud at ground-level as opposed to rising physically into the clouds and vanishing. Denying the latter is crucial to you?

Tom
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 5:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
Bruce: Oh, "heaven" is not "up."

Tom: Clouds are.
I have  to point out that most of those in my home CRC church comfessionally understand that Christ''s boy is in heaven -- thinking that heaven is a playce where Christ's body is...and that all other places it is not.
 
I was saying that heaven (and hell) are not places.
 
Likewise, our glorification wil not be about change of location so much aa status.


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 5:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: Is that what you're saying?

Bruce. No. I'm not saying that JC did not leave the ground but walked into a cloud. What would be my point then? What I am saying that where some launch balloons they are missing the point. And revisiting the passages -- one is more vertical and the other is more transitional -- are probably helpful.

(Care to listen to Hopko?)


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 5:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
fw
 
(The glorification of Jesus refers to His Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension into heaven. When we speak of Christ's glorified Body, we refer to Its honor, splendor, majesty and visible radiance - it gave off rays of bright light!)

The time span of forty days is used symbolically in the Holy Scriptures and by the Church to indicate that an appropriate amount of time has passed for "completeness".

http://www.theologic.com/oflweb/feasts/ascen.htm


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 5:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

FW

. . . He lifted up His hands and blessed them. As His Disciples were looking on, He was lifted up - or "ascended" - and a cloud took Him out of sight. While they were looking up, two angels in white robes appeared and said to them: "Why are you men from Galilee standing here looking into the sky? Jesus, Who has been taken up from you into heaven, this same Jesus will come back in the same was as you have seen Him go there."

The Ascension is, therefore, a sign and symbol of the Second Coming. Christ will return to the earth in the same manner as He left it. When the risen Lord returns again in glory, God's will for mankind will be fulfilled.

Jesus completed His earthly mission of bringing salvation to all people and physically was lifted up from this world into heaven. The meaning and the fullness of Christ's Resurrection is given in the Ascension. Having completed His mission in this world as the Savior, He returned to the Father in heaven Who sent Him into the world. In ascending to the Father, He raises earth to heaven with Him!

Before He ascended into heaven, Jesus told His followers to remain in Jerusalem because in a few days they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:1-12 and Luke 24:13-53). Christ ascends to heaven and sends the Holy Spirit to the world. The Spirit comes to reconcile and reunite the world with God. Christ's Body is in heaven and His Spirit is here on earth. Ascension is also a sign of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

The Symbol of Faith - the Nicene Creed - which summarizes the important doctrines and teachings of the Church, contains these words: "And ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father." The importance and meaning of this feast is that Jesus glorified our fallen and sinful humanity when He returned to the Father. In Jesus, Who is perfect God and perfect man, man is reunited with God. At His birth, Jesus took on our human nature. Through His Ascension He deified this human nature by taking His Body to heaven and giving it a place of honor at the right hand of the Father. With Christ, man's nature also ascends. Through Christ, man becomes a "partaker of divine nature" (II Peter 1:4). When Christ became man, He took up human nature and we share our human nature with Him. It is through Christ, Who is perfect God and perfect man, that we "partake of divine nature." When we say that Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father, we mean that man has been restored to communion with God because Christ gives His humanity - which He shares with us - a permanent place of honor in heaven. Christ honors us by putting us close to the Father.

We celebrate the Ascension with the same great joy the Apostles had when they were promised that the Holy Spirit would come to bear witness to the presence of Christ in the Church. Ascension day is joyful, not only because Christ is glorified, but also because we are glorified with Him. We are joyful because He goes to "prepare a place" for us and because He is forever present before the Father to intercede for us.

...reprinted with some minor editing from Ascension and Pentecost, Commission on Religious Education, Romanian Orthodox Episcopate, 1975)
 
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 5:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ANOTHER thing Hopko remarked about is that the Creed really says "I look for...thelife that is COMING" (rather than "to come";-)


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2009 5:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom said...
What I don't get is why we have to say this excludes Jesus' physical ascension, why Jesus has to vanish into a cloud at ground-level as opposed to rising physically into the clouds and vanishing. Denying the latter is crucial to you?

Tom
I don't exclude elevation.
 
But the scriprual imagery of Tabor (Christ with Moses and Elijah) and Sinai (Moses) parallel this.


(o)

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Tom
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   Posted 6/7/2009 12:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm following ya, Bruce. Thanks!
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/7/2009 4:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank YOU, very much Tom!


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Tom
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   Posted 6/8/2009 12:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Don't thank me. I'm the stubborn argumentative one! Thank YOU! Ha.

T
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