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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Paradox Lost - S. M. Hutchens on Open Theism & the Easy Road to Heresy | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | POW: You can be an open theist and not believe in Christ at all. Hutchens vindicated.
TOM: U-oh. You said you got the essential, core open view. Why are you surprised that a Muslim or a Jew can be an open theist? Not a good sign.
Let's put it this way. It's something like this... A Muslim, Jew, and Buddhist adherent can say that Ultimate Reality is a personal, loving indwelling ground of all reality...and NOT believe in Jesus of Nazareth as Crucified Creator and Risen Christ. But you cannot truly believe in Jesus as Crucified Creator and Risen Christ...while NOT believing that Ultimate Reality is a personal presence grounding all reality.
To put too much stock in the first "agreement of perspective" to the relativization of the implications of uniqueness of the Incarnation...will end up to be missing the point of Creation which deals SPECIFICALLY WITH the Incarnation. In other words, divorcing discussion of human freedom from a non-Christocentric standpoint will NATURALLY lead to heresies and two-horned dilemmas.
See what I'm saying?
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 7/22/2009 1:18:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, I follow ya. I'm just surprised that POW is surprised that Jews can be open theists.
We're all good.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:28 AM (GMT -6) | | D: From what I see, all of the elements of the "essential, core open view" can be found, I think, in a thoroughgoing indwelling and expressing of who Christ really is (Creator Logos, Incarnate Word, Father's Gift to Man, etc). Don't you think, Tom?
T: Rats. I didn't wanna get into this on this thread. Ha!
I don't think you can get the open view, or even the core elements of the open view, from Christology (i.e., just from the hypostatic union, if that's what you mean by Christology). I say this because a core element of the open view is interpersonal relationality, relations between divine and non-divine persons. You don't have interpersonal relations instantiated in Christ between the divine and the non-divine, but you DO have it instantiated in/by us.
Oh well.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I don't think you can get the open view, or even the core elements of the open view, from Christology (i.e., just from the hypostatic union, if that's what you mean by Christology). I say this because a core element of the open view is interpersonal relationality, relations between divine and non-divine persons. You don't have interpersonal relations instantiated in Christ between the divine and the non-divine, but you DO have it instantiated in/by us.
Hmmm...
Is Jesus "Immanuel"...which means "God WITH US"? Is Jesus the one who represents God "tabernacling" with with his people?
Christ as "Eternal Gift to Humanity" necessarily implies interpersonal relationality between God (The Gift Giver) and Humanity (The Gift Receiver). Christ is not separate from the OT God for whom interpersonal conversation (covenant) is implied in his Divine Speaking (creation).
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 7/22/2009 1:35:15 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:32 AM (GMT -6) | | And THAT is my problem with saying "openness comes from Christology." Really? It does? I guess if you could show me where, I'm willing to see it.
I know it's a good thing to be Christ-centered and all, but I don't think we GET every doctrine there is specifically from observing the hypostatic union. Christ-centered, to me, means everything we believe has to be consistent with Christ's being at the center, our all-in-all. It doesn't mean everything we believe has to be deduced logically from some aspect of Christology or some attribute of Christ. See?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:35 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Is Jesus "Immanuel"...which means "God WITH US"? Is Jesus the one who represents God "tabernacling" with WITH HIS PEOPLE? Christ as "Eternal Gift to Humanity" necessarily implies interpersonal relationality between God (The Gift Giver) and Humanity (The Gift Receiver)
T: OK, so "Christology" here is pretty WIDE. You're including in it the fact that God intends from the start to incarnate personally and related personally to creatures. Well, sure. If THAT'S what you mean by Christology, yeah. I thought you said we can derive the open view logically from the hypostatic union itself. Just narrow in on THAT specific mystery and--poof--there's the open view. I don't see THAT. I'd be happy if it was true, but I don't see it.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
OK, so "Christology" here is pretty WIDE. You're including in it the fact that God intends from the start to incarnate personally and related personally to creatures. Well, sure. If THAT'S what you mean by Christology, yeah.
I think that Hutchins is just saying that the Church has already KNOWN the stuff that "open theists" (who are primarily reacting against theological determinism) WITHOUT falling into the implicit "two-storey-ness" and heresy that non-Christocentric thinking about human freedom can lead to.
The person in the love union with Christ in "God's World", the person who's mind is in the heart, doesn't have to be told or convinced of God's openness to the world and the world's openness to God.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 7/22/2009 1:56:02 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/22/2009 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
Yeah, I follow ya. I'm just surprised that POW is surprised that Jews can be open theists.
Like I said, I was not surprised!
OT is a philosophy and not a theology (Alan). That's what everyone said of it early on, but OT denied it.
Like Alan implied, it needs a rename. "O-____"
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/22/2009 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/22/2009 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | | I need a break. I got Marvin Gaye "Sexual Healing" on. That'll detract me.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/22/2009 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | |
Similtude said...POW, why do you think philosophy can't be about God?
Where did I say it can't.
Since Alan is saying that O-_ is not a specific theology...I was going to suggest, then, that he rename O-_ to be "the open philosophy of god and creation."
Please refrain from assuming that I'm thinking/doing the worst.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 7/22/2009 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Serious stuff, though, Tom.
Remember our thinking. What it means to be fully "personalized" by Christ through the inner communion with him in the heart. What does it matter for a person to be an believer in an open future...and NOT be connected with God "on the inside", like what we talked about? Feel me? It seems like prioritizing belief in an open future over entering the inner sanctum of the heart ends up catching the person up in just more thoughts about God...and not direct experience, which IS the point. Communining with God and participating in God...who is by nature unperceivable by human senses or approachable by human reason. Reposting...
We AGREE that a human being's identity as a PERSON doesn't come from the memories she has, the actions and behavior she engages in with her context, her relationships with other human beings, nor from anything else in the created realm. Nothing in creation and tell me WHO I am. Only God can do that. So there has to be a place, a moment, an experience where God and I get this done, where I experience God in Christ through the Spirit telling me that I'm a priceless beloved son, that the very sustaining core of my existence, where the potential for fulfilling my 'logos' resides, is an indestructible grace-gift from God that doesn't derive from anything in the created order.
When this happens, I believe that the openness and presentism in Creation become...well...self-evident.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."
"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler Post Edited (One Love) : 7/22/2009 1:45:59 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/22/2009 2:21 PM (GMT -6) | |
Similtude said...Ah, I see. I thought you took the "T" off of "OT" to imply that philosophy isn't about God or theism. Thanks for the clarification! And I wasn't thinking "the worst" so much as I was wondering if you defined philosophy to mean something I don't mean by it.
Technically my brain burped. I thought I took off "theology" but instead took off "theism" -- which in my pre-coffee stupor meant "theology-ology."
Thanks for figuring me out.
B.
Sso, opentheism is NOT A THEOLOGY.
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Tom
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| Posted 7/22/2009 3:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom: So there has to be a place, a moment, an experience where God and I get this done, where I experience God in Christ through the Spirit telling me that I'm a priceless beloved son...
D: When this happens, I believe that the openness and presentism in Creation become...well...self-evident.
T: But some people have hang-ups, bad history, bad theology, that all make it difficult for them to FIND that place, that moment, and experience God. You know that. Open theism is valuable if it helps people find their way beyond all that. It openned me up. How many others have written and said helped them believe God was...x, y, z. Remember all we talked about how "perceptions" limit "choices"? Open theism (for me at least) is just about correcting poor perceptions so people can make better choices. If somebody can really relate healthily to God and make great choices and find that inner moment and be perfecte as a hard-core Calvinist, more power to him. No complaints here.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/22/2009 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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JET
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| Posted 7/22/2009 10:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom: But some people have hang-ups, bad history, bad theology, that all make it difficult for them to FIND that place, that moment, and experience God. You know that. Open theism is valuable if it helps people find their way beyond all that. It openned me up. How many others have written and said helped them believe God was...x, y, z. Remember all we talked about how "perceptions" limit "choices"? Open theism (for me at least) is just about correcting poor perceptions so people can make better choices. If somebody can really relate healthily to God and make great choices and find that inner moment and be perfecte as a hard-core Calvinist, more power to him. No complaints here.
Earl: Right. Open theism's value is primarily in giving people (like me) permission to get beyond certain hangups and move on to more important things. Open theism is not about imposing a new theology on anyone. It is about giving people options. I only discuss OT with: (a) friends who I know have hang ups similar to mine and who need another option in order to move on in their faith; or (b) those who want to impose compatibilism on others as a requirement of orthodoxy (and, thus, as a potential stumbling block).
We ALL have a metaphysical, philosophical, logical framework when we think about God, creation, providence, sovereignty, freedom, divine knowledge, etc. As much as POW would like to deny it, he has a metaphysical, philosophical framework that has an "ism" in its name: Compatibilism. That is what works for Hutchens, POW and many others. However, for ME, compatibilism is one of the biggest stumbling blocks any brother could ever place in my pathway. Is that what they want?
I'm beyond that now, but I feel deeply for people who are where I was 9 or 10 years ago. I have a close friend who was all but stuck in his faith journey due to his received tradition of combatibilism. Talking to him about open theism has been transformational for him. And he never felt the need to "convert" to open theism. It was enough for him just to know that there was another possibility. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Total Posts : 830
| Posted 7/23/2009 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | In getting a story correct the following comes to mind... who, what, where, when, and why.
All of these come into play if we are to rightly relate to the "other". We don't know "who", if "what, where, when, and why" are absent.
peace, don
The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.
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