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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 8/19/2009 5:37 PM (GMT -6)

Greg: I’ll leave you with this teaser thought: Is it possible that some divinely inspired material is not supposed to reveal to us what God is like but what he is not like? Is it possible that some material is inspired precisely because God wants us to follow Jesus’ example and repudiate it?

Jeff: Greg is gonna write a book arguing the point above. This one I have to read! He bases the argument on taking the "turn the other cheek" passage to mean that no force is ever valid. As far as I can tell, that passage means one of two things. It means what Zach and Greg say it means, in which case I have no idea what the OT or Rom. 13 is saying at all. Or it means that not only are we not to avenge ourselves, as individuals, but we are to go so far, in circumstances where it is more effective at overcoming evil, as to acquiesce to evil-doers to diminish their impulse to do evil (a soft voice turns away anger, etc). But the latter does not necessitate the idea that the State is inherently evil by virtue of its use of force. And by implication, the latter implies that Christians can use force in a NON-RETALIATORY manner when "feeding your enemy" won't "overcome" the evil they are designing against the innocent.

According to the latter approach, some judgment is necessary. But, in favor of that approach, it's virtually impossible to argue absolutely that acquiescing to ALL evil actions OVERCOMES all evil. But we know from experience that SOME acquiescense DOES diminish the violent impulse in others. So it's hard to suppose that Paul was really suggesting that feeding the enemy or turning the cheek (as opposed to fleeing) is always the way to OVERCOME evil. Especially since he immediately advocates paying taxes on the grounds that the State is ministering unto our good by using retaliatory force against evil-doers, and he further contends that we owe the State because it is an instance of owing love to our fellow-man. Interestingly, Greg allowed for some non-resolvable mystery in the approach he's taking. I think he feels the sheer difficulty of what he's setting out to argue.

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 8/19/2009 6:28 PM (GMT -6)

I can't even begin to understand what Greg's words mean. What's he even talking about?

T

One Love
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Posted 8/19/2009 9:59 PM (GMT -6)

Sheesh.

It seems there's a easy way to look at this. Christians are supposed to see Christ in all human beings (including themselves). That's essentially what Jesus means when he says that whatever we do to the "least of these", we've done to Him. And honestly, that totally makes sense, given Logos-Vision, where Christ truly IS the center of all things and all human beings...

Be not estranged from one another, for God dwells in every human heart.
--Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Can a Spirit-filled person blow someone's head off or carpet bomb in self-defense or just war...while they are actively seeing God (Christ the Logos) in all things, including Christ's very presence in their enemies/attackers (whom they are supposed to be loving as they love themselves)? That's the question.

"Creation is allowed in intimate love to speak to the Creator as if to a lover. As the Creator loves the creation, so the creation loves the Creator. The whole world has been embraced by this kiss."
Hildegard of Bingen

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/19/2009 10:03:32 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 8/19/2009 10:12 PM (GMT -6)

What happens when everywhere you look, you see your Lover?

"The Hunt"
Niyaz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNmchWsSmUo

Let's go to the field.
Which field?
The same that has rabbits, oh yes.
And my dog has a rope on its foot, oh yes.
Don't kill my dog nor my rabbits,
For the dream of the rabbit reminds me of the dream of my Lover, oh yes.

Let's go to the mountain.
Which mountain?
The same that has deer, oh yes.
And my dog has a rope on its foot, oh yes.
Don't kill my dog, nor my rabbit, nor my deer,
For the grace of my deer reminds me of the grace of my Lover, oh yes.

Let's go to the garden.
Which garden?
The same that has pheasants, oh yes.
And my dog has a rope on its foot, oh yes.
Don't kill my dog, nor my rabbit, nor my deer, nor my pheasants,
For the amble of the pheasant reminds me of the amble of my Lover, oh yes.

Let's go to the well.
Which well?
The same that has pigeons, oh yes.
And my dog has a rope on its foot, oh yes.
Don't kill my dog, nor my rabbits, nor my deer, nor my pheasants,nor my pigeons,
For the flight of the pigeon reminds me of the flight of my Lover, oh yes.

Let's go to the mountains.
Which mountains?
The same that have eagles, oh yes.
And my dog has a rope on its foot, oh yes.
Don't kill my dog, nor my rabbit, nor my deer, nor my pheasants, nor my pigeons, nor my eagles,
For the clutch of the eagle reminds me of the clutch of my Lover, oh yes.

-------------------

How much more would this song apply for human beings?

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

One Love
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Posted 8/20/2009 4:02 AM (GMT -6)

Revised Question:

Can a Holy Spirit filled person with a purified heart intentionally seek to harm and/or kill other human beings as "enemies"...while they are actively "seeing Jesus" in all things and all humans, including themselves?

I'll tip my hand.

I vote "No."

If a "Holy Spirit filled person with a purified heart" is pretty much our ultimate future state, then, Christianly speaking, it makes no sense for a member of Christ's Eucharistic Body to operate counter to this process in the present by working against that "eschatological essence" of oneself, grounded in the Creator Spirit. We are not to deter to process of our individual (and corporate) soul's growth into Christ the Logos for the sake of any human goals and/or agendas. Unless one hates even their very life, one can't be Christ's disciple, let alone God's lover...right? To "love the world" enough to trangress Logos-Vision in expedient, prudential violence...is like working against the birthing process of Christ in the believer and community once its already been started...a bad move. In other words, to fail to love other human beings as God loves us...to fail to forgive as we have been forgiven by God...is to commit immediate self-destruction and self-separation that dispells the peaceful rest of God.

There's your argument the safe, modern promotion of "You shall not kill" and "Love your neighbor (enemy) as yourself" as Christian ethic...as well as "Whatever you have done to the least of these, you've done to Me."

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/20/2009 4:38:36 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 8/20/2009 4:27 AM (GMT -6)

Any "Yes" answers out there?

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/20/2009 4:33:47 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 8/20/2009 4:56 AM (GMT -6)

Just a quick thought. A weird hypothetical.

If every proclaimed Christian in the entire United States Armed Forces spontaneously achieved "theoria" such that they fully saw and recognized Christ's Presence in all things and all persons...and because of such "sight", demanded that humane, non-lethal technological methods of peacekeeping be taken...do you think the U.S. Government would listen to those patriotic men and women?

What if every proclaimed Christian in the United States...PERIOD...did this? Could the U.S. Government REALLY ignore that?

Really?

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the current population of America is 307,223,175 persons. (as of the time of this post)

According to Gallop, the percentage of Americans who self-identify as Christian stands at 77%.

That makes approximately 236,561,844 Americans who acknowledge Christ in some fashion in their lives and personal histories.

Imagine all those Christ-ones having "Logos-Vision" and saying "We want to love our neighbors as ourselves...within and without our nation...PERIOD! You are our leaders. We will help you do it, so do it."

Do you think the American Government could just ignore that?

Really?

Would this affect our country's current take international affairs...or even HEALTH CARE right here at home?

Talk about stragetic non-violent reform.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/20/2009 5:17:07 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 8/20/2009 9:36 AM (GMT -6)

Yes.

Ananias and Sapphira.

Tom

Daniel M
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Total Posts : 263

Posted 8/20/2009 10:00 AM (GMT -6)

One Love: Can a Holy Spirit filled person with a purified heart intentionally seek to harm and/or kill other human beings as "enemies"...while they are actively "seeing Jesus" in all things and all humans, including themselves?

Tom: Yes, Ananias and Sapphira.

Daniel: Tom, I've seen you make this point a few times. And I really think it's a Non sequitur. You seem to be implying that Peter is the one who killed Ananias and Sapphira, by using the Holy Spirit like the Force, when the text indicates NOTHING of the sort.

One Love asked, "Can a Holy Spirit filled person..." indicating the agency of the violence is located within the human being. We have no reason to infer that Peter had anything to do with the killing of Ananias and Sapphira, beyond the fact that he was (probably) aware of the outcome.

In fact, Peter makes it clear that it is not men that are involved in this circumstance but the Holy Spirit itself, and Ananias and Sapphira, "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God"

I honestly don't see where you're getting it.

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 8/20/2009 11:13 AM (GMT -6)

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

might-be-don
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Total Posts : 830

Posted 8/20/2009 11:38 AM (GMT -6)

Just speculation on my part... but I can imagine that yesterday Ananias and Sapphira where having a chat with Peter and saying, "Thank you so much for revealing the truth to us! If we had persisted in the path were were headed down we just can't imagine what would have happened." .

I think Ananias and Sapphira were good folks that when their sin was revealed to them they crumbled under the weight of it.

peace, don

^{The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.}

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 8/20/2009 11:53 AM (GMT -6)

Why elevate death and violence to such an absolute level? Is it really the worst thing that can happen to someone, especially given our universalist understandings? It seems plausible to me that God can use these things to bring about greater beauty, both in the individual and the whole.

A person in theoria could, conceivably, be lead of God to bring about temporary harm such that greater eternal beauty results.

Just sayin'.

Daniel M
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Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263

Posted 8/20/2009 12:58 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Corey,

Corey said...
Why elevate death and violence to such an absolute level? Is it really the worst thing that can happen to someone, especially given our universalist understandings? It seems plausible to me that God can use these things to bring about greater beauty, both in the individual and the whole.

A person in theoria could, conceivably, be lead of God to bring about temporary harm such that greater eternal beauty results.

That sounds eerily similar to some Calvinist explanations of evil. Creation is like a painting, they would say, the dark strokes contrast and highlight the light strokes. The Creator needs to have dark strokes (extreme human suffering) for the light strokes (humanity at its best) to have meaning.

I thought that one of the guiding principles of Open Theism is that evil (violence of any kind) occurs, but specific evils doesn't necessarily serve any purpose of God. The existence of evil serves the purpose of having a real choice to be in relation with God or not. But Zosia didn't have her eyes plucked out to make the rest of creation more beautiful.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 8/20/2009 1:31 PM (GMT -6)

Corey:
A person in theoria could, conceivably, be lead of God to bring about temporary harm such that greater eternal beauty results.

You are saying that a pure-hearted, God-filled person in this life who sees God's Loving Grace everywhere and "re-presents" Christ's Spiritual Presence to all persons can be directly lead by Christ HIMSELF (via the Holy Spirit) to intentionally seek to harm and/or kill other human beings. You'd be implying that a person who LIVES IN 1 Corinthians 13 (we'd have to at least say THAT about a person in theoria!) can act to intentionally seek to harm and/or kill another human as an act of perfect love for God and neighbor.

Really?

Like...for real???

I don't know about that.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/20/2009 1:40:16 PM (GMT-5)

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
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Posted 8/20/2009 2:16 PM (GMT -6)

I think Tom's point about the seeming inconsistency of defending state action while forbidding absolutely ALL use of force for individuals is to the point. I don't see any way we can argue that benevolence is ONLY non-forceful action while arguing the state is a benevolent institution or even a lesser of inevitable evils. Once you pull the mystery card, as Greg did, we're not talking reason anymore. And then argument is not only pointless but counter-productive.

Post Edited (Similtude) : 8/20/2009 2:23:40 PM (GMT-5)

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 8/20/2009 2:23 PM (GMT -6)

I'm just thinking along the lines described in Works of Love, that the outer is not the inner, that any particular act is not necessarily an act of love, or necessarily NOT an act of love. What I'm balking at is the notion that we can absolutize a particular behavior as necessarily incompatible with love; IF God directs it, it's a work of love, regardless.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 8/20/2009 2:23 PM (GMT -6)

Similtude:
I think Tom's point about the seeming inconsistency of defending state action while forbidding absolutely ALL use of force for individuals is to the point. I don't see any way we can argue that benevolence is ONLY non-forceful action and yet the state is a legitimate institution.

Where did Tom say all that? I thought he just talked about Ananias and Sapphira.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 8/20/2009 2:24 PM (GMT -6)

previous posts, multiple times... What difference does it make? How do we address that point?

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 8/20/2009 2:27 PM (GMT -6)

Corey:
I'm just thinking along the lines described in Works of Love, that the outer is not the inner, that any particular act is not necessarily an act of love, or necessarily NOT an act of love. What I'm balking at is the notion that we can absolutize a particular behavior as necessarily incompatible with love; IF God directs it, it's a work of love, regardless.

So, Christ HIMSELF (via the Spirit) can direct a fully Christ-like person of pure heart and unconditional love...to blow someone's head off in a war or self-defense...WHILE said Christ-like person sees Christ in all persons, actively trying to re-present Christ to all persons??

This is frying my intuition center...really.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/20/2009 2:33:01 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 8/20/2009 2:31 PM (GMT -6)

Similitude:
How do we address that point?

Talk in terms of our telos.

If Christ's Body (the Church) is to be an eschatological people, then we are to allow Christ to live the life of "beating swords into ploughshares" in us RIGHT NOW.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 8/20/2009 2:35 PM (GMT -6)

I tell you what. If it's like that, then I don't see any real argument against the Calvinists. At all. If Rambo blowing some "enemy's" head off can be an example of a perfected saint's expression of love immediately directed by the Holy Spirit, then all bets are off. If God can lovingly directly blowing people's heads off, then please don't tell me he can't be orchestrating/directing persons to cutting out little girls' eyes for ultimately loving purposes.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 8/20/2009 2:39 PM (GMT -6)

D: ... blow someone's head off in a war or self-defense ...

C: btw, we're intending to read through that book this year. I'd love it if you could join us and help bring that conversation to the next level.

Of course I (too!) recoil at such a scenario. Let me point out, if the action stems from self-defense or national defense, then by definition it is not a work of love.

But I still don't think it's warranted to say that God can NEVER use violence as a work of love.

Post Edited (Corey) : 8/20/2009 2:42:21 PM (GMT-5)

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 8/20/2009 2:44 PM (GMT -6)

This comes back to Divine Command theory of ethics, doesn't it?

I'm reading this right now: Kierkegaard's Ethic of Love: Divine Commands and Moral Obligations by C. Stephen Evans.

I'm just saying, IF God commanded a particular action, whatever it is, then it is by definition a work of love.

Post Edited (Corey) : 8/20/2009 2:49:51 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 8/20/2009 3:46 PM (GMT -6)

Corey:
I still don't think it's warranted to say that God can NEVER use violence as a work of love.

and...

IF God commanded a particular action, whatever it is, then it is by definition a work of love.

I don't disagree either point. In the A/S situation, we have a human being pronouncing God's bringing of death to a human being...and we don't say that this NEGATES the truth that "God is Love." At the same time, I'm trying to conceptualize of a Christ-like human being who sees themselves MARRIED TO CHRIST...and sees Christ in themselves and all other humans, re-presents Christ Himself in their being, intentionally trying to blow someone's head and torso to bits in any self-defense or war situation they found themselves in.

Dude, I am TRYYYYYING...SOOO...HAAAARD to see this. I'm doing the Selah thing. I'm living in it. Feelin' it. Tasting it. I'm in the military. I'm under orders to be in Afganistan. So, I read the Scripture where Paul talks about how he works, but it is CHRIST IN HIM that works through his working. Ok. So I take the thought, go out, and we follow the orders that we are given and, in doing so, end up in combat. Christ in me takes aim at a person I don't know who MIGHT be an "enemy" running accross the street...killing them. But wait Christ in me accidently had a stray bullet hit a 12 year old child in the nearby vicinity that I couldn't see. But hey, Christ in me can't wait for thinking bout that. More people in God's image to kill. Let's throw this grenade now...

I'm NOT trying to be funny or facetious. I just can't see this. Lord Jesus, if this IS how it is, just let us know. For real...

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

Post Edited (One Love) : 8/20/2009 3:54:09 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 8/20/2009 4:00 PM (GMT -6)

Lord, please help us. Make some damn sense of this passage for us, why don't You?? Stop being so VAGUE...

-----------------------------------

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to that person; then come and offer your gift.

***************************************

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

**********************************

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

--------------------------

Lord Jesus, I'll speak for myself. Please show ME how these things translate to Your Bride blowing human bodies to bits with deadly arsenal. Please, Lord. I think I can speak for all of us when I say that we ALL need your wisdom in these times.

Know me, Eternal Lover...and help me to know You...

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