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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2012 1:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | D: It seems like the whole idolatry tag that you are taking upon YOURSELF on behalf of Greg is buggin' you.
T: Psychoanalyzing us helps. Why do you feel the need to do that? Can you not stay on subject? I don’t see myself as an idolater, though I get the feeling in reading you that you consider those not willing to worship a HOWEVER-God are idolatrous rebels who will only worship a God compatible with our moral sensitivities. Nobody’s introduced that into this conversation but you Bro. It’s been your beef with Greg’s rejection of Calvin’s God from the get-go.
D: Oh, please. Do you REALLY THINK that Moses, when he first experienced God in the burning bush, thought of God as perfectly unconditionally, universally loving to ALL people? Particularly when God tried to KILL Moses for not circumsizing his son? Was HE pagan?
T: You’re missing the point badly Bro. Try to draw the distinction between Ananias and Sapphira, Sodom and Gomorrah, trying to kill Moses, bears attacking children, and Paul blinding Sorcerers—all on the one hand and all of which CAN be reconciled with an essentially loving God—and God unconditionally determining people to an eternal hell on the other hand. This latter item is categorically different, and it doesn’t appear anywhere in the OT.
Of course Moses didn’t have the same view of God that you and I have based on Christ’s having come, although God revealed himself clearly to be UNLIKE the Philistines, NOT requiring of Jews what THEIR GODS require of them, that this form of worship doesn’t please God.
And we have Exodus 34 too:
6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”
Abraham and Moses both expressed reservations to actions God proposed taking based on moral sensibilities (informed by what they had come to learn God was truly like)—Abraham with S & G and Moses with destroying all Israel and starting over with him. Perhaps that was part of God’s strategy. That makes more sense that assuming Abraham and Moses actually educated God in these instances and helped God become as sensitive as they were.
But nothing I’ve been saying requires that Moses had a fully informed view of God (a post-Jesus view). But this doesn’t get you a basis for saying that the fullness of God’s intentions for our existence and worship require a willingness on our part to worship WHATEVER.
Lastly, if you want to widen the conversation to everything Greg has ever said on the subject of God and evil, fine. That’s a big mistake I think and quite unfair—i.e., to judge Greg
I’m only interested in his response to your question about how he’d respond to meeting Calvin’s God. That’s all.
Tom
"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2012 1:26 PM (GMT -6) | | D: Do you believe that whenever Saul FIRST experienced Jesus on the road to Damascus, being blinded by Him...that he immediately believed that Jesus was unconditionally and universally loving to all people?
T: I don’t imagine so, no.
D: And that such a realization was what "won his heart" for him to see Christ as "worthy" to serve?
T: I don’t imagine so.
Do you imagine that God had no intention of perfecting Saul’s motivations and understandings?
Do you imagine that perfect love would not do what Saul needed to get him on the journey to discovery?
Do you imagine that when Saul fell from his horse he was capable of writing 1 Cor. 13?
Do you imagie that Paul would not admit at the end of his journey to having been a less-than-perfectly-motivated follower of Jesus at the beginning?
Do you imagine that God does not accept our less-than-ideal motivations because that’s all we have to offer at a particular point in time?
It's like you don't think Jesus informs or reforms our motivations at all.
Tom
"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg BoydPost Edited (Tom) : 2/10/2012 12:29:39 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2012 1:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
You're not hearing me. Given Whitehead/CH/Greg's T&P, aesthetic evaluation/satisfaction is an irreducible part of all the choices we make, including your choice to abandon Calvinism. Moral sensitility/appetite is just a subset of aesthetic sensibility/perception in general. That was my point. You were aesthetically motivated to abandon Calvinism. If not, then I don't know who you are. And if Tom Talbott convinced you of UR, you must know that moral-aesthetic dimension is HUGELY important to his argument. It's the motivation which set him to re-examine the texts in the first place.
Dude, all I can do is tell you my process. In Tulsa, Oklahoma, I read Whitehead. Then I read T&P. I remember the day that I said "Hmm...this actually makes sense. It IS possible for the future to be open." Later that week, I "came out" on the board as an newly convinced open theist, leaving behind Calvinism. I remember telling one of my seminary prof about it!
As far as UR, one of the strongest arguments to me that I remembered was this: the ONLY way that I could see God maximizing his glory and pleasure in his creation (ala Aesthetic Argument) would be to have ALL sentient being EVENTUALLY come around to be saved...AND it was the ONLY way that there wouldn't be some kind of eternal statemate between God and evil. THESE were my considerations.
I guess the "aesthetic satisfaction" I had was in THINGS MAKING SENSE.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2012 12:31:39 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2012 1:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
D: Dude, all I can do is tell you my process.
T: And you want US to appreciate that and not judge it. And all Greg can do is tell you HIS process. Is your process a surer path to certainty of the truth than his?
On the real, g, get over the feeling "judged", will you? I am saying what is TRUE: Greg has a conditional acceptance of the Creator's authority based upon whether or not Calvinism turns out to be true.
This is JUST TRUE, Tom.
Please just see that.
Tell you what, Tom. You're fixin' ta see Greg pretty soon here, right? ASK him about this when you see him. Ask him what he would tell Jesus himself, post-resurrection, if Calvinism (many people in ECT, etc) ended up being true? Make sure to note any and all colorful language too. 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2012 12:47:47 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2012 1:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
It's not EDF and ECT! Even THOSE can conceivably (though with great difficulty) be made compatible with an essentially loving God revealed in the character of Christ.
You KNOW that Greg would completely disagree with you there, right? I mean COMPLETELY.
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Tom:
It's about ONE particular view of God...viz., the view that has God unconditionally loving a few and hating most and creating the most to suffering irrevocably in hell. JUST THIS ONE item. You don't have ANY moral or aesthetic (call it whatever) sensibility (like Abraham and Moses did when THEY expressed their reservations to God) that tell you, "I feel something's wrong trying to worship and love THAT"?
The most I can say is that, with this view, God would not be universally loving. I could be like "Well, he could have damned EVERYONE. Guess we're lucky he at least saved some. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!" But I wouldn't be like "I can't worship or honor that." Maybe because I did it so long before.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2012 1:05:16 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2012 2:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
T: I'm not questioning whether or not it's true. I've admitted it IS. I've admitted that I believe our love of God IS and OUGHT TO BE conditional. Paul says it's condidtional. THIS is just true too, D
Ok. We'll do this nice and slow. Show me the conditions of Shema. Show me how the 1st Great Commandment is conditioned by anything. Paul merely said that we OUGHT to love God and others as we have been loved. The love we get from God should be the ground of our love for others. In other words, we shouldn't be wicked servants. That's not the same thing as saying that the 1st Great Commandment is ESSENTIALLY conditional on some kind of perspective.
Where's Kierkegaard when you need him? (You SHALL love...)
Hey, Corey! Do YOU think the 1st Great Commandment is conditional? Heehee... 
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Tom:
Please don't tell me what to get over. I'm not taking that line with you as passionate as you are about this. I don't feel judged by you because I'm imagining it. You've gone on record as judging Greg's conditional view as wrong and unworthy of God. Conditional it is! I agree. Wrong I don't believe it is. Judged by you for this view we are.
Get yourself out of this, please, Tom. I have been and am talking about Gregory A. Boyd and what I've gathered from his MULTIPLE conversations with me on this subject, online and otherwise. You are the one who keeps bringing yourself into this. Check this whole discussion. Moreover, I've gone on record as saying the following: Greg is WILLING to rebel/resist/dismiss his Creator to his face...AND tell this Creator to "shove it" (HIS WORDS, DUDE! I heard them myself!)...AND tell this Creator to remove Greg from God's presence because he wouldn't be able to enjoy God's presence knowing what he knows...IFF Calvinism is true. I believe this shows that Greg is willing to 1) say that God is at fault for evil, 2) judge God as being unworthy of his devotion, and 3) reject God accordingly. When you ask him, I don't think he will deny any of this.
I'm gonna put the quote...again...
"To take the stand that God is at fault for the presence of evil is implicitly to lose one's relation to God since one now becomes God's judge, which is the very position of evil. Thus, to lose one's relationship to God is to lose one's self to evil; to remain agnostic where God and evil are concerned is to lose one's own soul by refusing to choose and implicitly to admit to having a love of God that can be qualified or negated by that which is not God--and thus to confess one neither loves or even knows God."
James Loder on Kierkegaard's "On the Edification Implied in the Fact that Before God We Are Always in the Wrong."
How does Greg's stated intentions match up with the quote that originated this whole thread?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2012 1:25:21 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2012 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | D: The most I can say is that, with this view, God would not be universally loving.
T: That's placing a candy coating on it to be sure. State it in more positive terms. God would be positively hateful, as hateful as he is loving toward the lucky ones. You don't think Abraham and Moses might speak up and say (as they once DID), "Surely the judge of all the Earth will do rightly?" or "Wait a second. If you do that then you'll go down in history as being a real creep"?
D: I could be like "Well, he could have damned EVERYONE. Guess we're lucky he at least saved some. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!" But I wouldn't be like "I can't worship of love that."
T: That's what Abraham said, right? "Whew! I sure am lucky that God's fire reigned on other innocent people and not on me as an innocent person." And imagine Moses saying, "Sure God. Hey, wipe them out. The nations will misunderstand this and believe you to be a real promise-breaker and as arbitrary as their own gods, but hey, at least I'LL survive and have it all named after me!"
D: Maybe because I did it so long before.
T: So let 'what you did for so long' be informed and reformed by Christ. Change.
Tom
"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg BoydPost Edited (Tom) : 2/10/2012 1:13:38 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2012 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
D: I could be like "Well, he could have damned EVERYONE. Guess we're lucky he at least saved some. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!" But I wouldn't be like "I can't worship of love that."
T: That's what Abraham said, right? "Whew! I sure am lucky that God's fire reigned on other innocent people and not on me as an innocent person." And imagine Moses saying, "Sure God. Hey, wipe them out. The nations will misunderstand this and believe you to be a real promise-breaker and as arbitrary as their own gods, but hey, at least I'LL survive and have it all named after me!"
1) We know that God "knew" how many "innocent" people were there. God did NOT need Abe to tell him what to do or what was going on. It's not like Abe STOPPED God from doing something stupid. We know that.
2) I cannot imaging Abe or Moses saying "Get away from me, God! You're a promise-breaking cad who is NOT just and I'm morally bound to reject you, regardless if you ARE my Creator." I can't see that for the life of me. I really REALLY can't see it.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 2/10/2012 2:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
D: Show me how the 1st Great Commandment is conditioned by anything.
T: You're kidding right? Why of course it's conditioned! It's condition by Israel's HISTORY with God. It's conditioned by their deliverance and exodus from slavery. It's conditioned by God's election of them, by the patriarchal narrative and its whole content by which God identified himself to Moses and by which God introduced his call and God's plan to Israel.
What I MEAN, Tom, is that I don't see any conditions under which it is ALLOWABLE for Israel to "reject" God's commandment to love him with everything. I don't see any clause in the commandment that basically says "Hey, if God does X, Y, or Z, THEEEEEEEEN you can refuse to love Him. You then have that moral right/responsibility."
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Tom:
D: Maybe because I did it so long before.
T: So let 'what you did for so long' be informed and reformed by Christ. Change.
Change to what? For what? I'll just stick with the Prayer of the Heart...and dodge trying to feel some moral repugnance about different views about God.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2012 1:26:24 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2012 2:28 PM (GMT -6) | | D: Nope. It's this simple...
D says: Accept your Creator/Sustainer as your Creator, making him supremely important to your existence, however the Creator ends up being in reality.
Tom/Greg say: DO NOT accept your Creator/Sustainer as your Creator, making him supremely important to your existence if the Creator ends up being like Calvin's view of God.
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T: Actually that's not essentially different than my version! Ha!
True. I own it...glady. I actually argue AGAINST the existence of Calvin's God and of course that ENTAILS telling people NOT to offer their worship and devotion to him. Why would I do that? Because that God doesn't exist. He's a phantom. A nighmare from whom the true God can rescue us.
Tom
"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg BoydPost Edited (Tom) : 2/10/2012 1:33:28 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2012 2:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Will that include not railing against those who find their hearts invariably motivated on an aesthetic level?
I.
Am.
Talking.
about.
Greg.
Boyd.
DANGIT.
Now, we can talk about his faulty less-than-trinitarian Christology here all to be danged. His problematic theodicy? We can chop that up too. All that. But then when it comes to this, there's all THIS?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2012 2:41 PM (GMT -6) | | I give.
Greg's stated intentions ARE a great model of unreserved, unconditional love for God.
They do NOT conform to Loder's quote of Kierkegaard of judging God.
It's all in my head.
I'M the "judger", "idolater", and the sinner.
How's that?
We cool, now?
"To take the stand that God is at fault for the presence of evil is implicitly to lose one's relation to God since one now becomes God's judge, which is the very position of evil. Thus, to lose one's relationship to God is to lose one's self to evil; to remain agnostic where God and evil are concerned is to lose one's own soul by refusing to choose and implicitly to admit to having a love of God that can be qualified or negated by that which is not God--and thus to confess one neither loves or even knows God."
--James Loder on Kierkegaard's "On the Edification Implied in the Fact that Before God We Are Always in the Wrong."
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"The only God I can believe in is one who knows firsthand what it's like to be a Jewish child buried alive, and knows what it's like to be a Jewish mother watching her child be buried!"
--Greg Boyd in 1974
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 2/10/2012 1:50:59 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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