D: In Trinity and Process, Greg says that divine life experiences “unsurpassably intense” experience of beauty via the interpersonal relationship in the Trinity. I take this to mean that God experience of beauty through deep loving interpersonal communion within Godself cannot increase or be increased upon. It is literally “all it can be.”

Tom: It’s as “unsurpassably intense” as it can be. Right. Just wanna focus on THAT, ‘cause I want to repeat a point I’ve made before that I think helps explain how we can ‘mean’ something to God.

D: Also, Greg makes it clear that one things that distinguishes divine existence from creaturely existence is surpassability of beautiful experience (and corresponding limitation/finitude of perspective).

Tom: Right.

D: My question is this: Is human existence, in its deified state, capable of an “unsurpassably intense” experience of beauty through communion/union with God?

Tom: I don’t think so, nope.

D: In other words, will it be eternally the case that we will always desire to “love God more” than we currently do...or will we experience a state with God where we cannot possibly love God more than we do...just like God with us. Said yet another way: Does the personal loving intimacy between God and a created person in the Holy Spirit of Jesus EVER reach a point of unsurpassable intensity?

Tom: Nope. And the reason why is ONE name: Gregory of Nyssa (but you already beat me to it).

We’ll be a PERFECT mixture of rest and anticipation, of fullness and longing—a longing that fulfills and a fullness which is anticipation. We’ll forever explore the infinite beauty of God. I found a passage in Ephesians that says exactly this (I think). So cool. I’ll run and find it.

D: Would this be what it means to be “like” God in at least THAT way?

Tom: I think so. Finite being can’t become divine being. But it can continually grow and expand its perception and thus enjoyment of God’s goodness and beauty.

What I was gonna add was just my kaleidoscope analogy. Maybe later. It just shows how God’s experience can BOTH be an unsurpassably intense satisfaction AND make room for us (i.e., God can really love us, enjoy us, value us, and be affected by us, etc.).

Tom

Eph. 3.17b-19. It’s right there:

“…that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.”

Amazing. Just amazing. But it makes sense.

We start out being rooted and grounded in love (by faith, v. 17). We experience the love of God in Christ.

Grounded in that, we then go on to grasp/comprehend the dimensions of love. I like the fact that we grasp the dimensions of love “together with all the saints.” Gotta love his ecclesiology. D, you know what this means? It means no one of us gets there without the others. It means you won’t realize the fullness of your logos until I realize the fullness of mine. It means all our logoi are filled to the measure of the fullness of God together. It means that no one saint’s deification is all it can and shall be until all logoi are redeemed. It means what the writer to the Hebrews said: “we are encompassed around by such a great cloud of witnesses.” They’re all cheering us on.

And then what’s amazing also is that we “know that which surpasses knowledge.” Gregory wasn’t the first to conceive ‘infinity’ in terms of unending ektasis! It was Paul! I love the play off each other. That we truly “know” his love is qualified by the fact that this love also “surpasses knowledge.” So “surpasses knowledge” doesn’t mean “unknowable” or “unexperienable.” It means “uncontainable.” It means what Gregory suggests—we spend forever experiencing an ever-growing fullness, and ever-expanding rest. There’s the answer to your question.

The Greek of v. 19 is so simple, but the meaning is overwhelming. I can hardly believe he means what these simple words say: “…hina plirothite eis pan to pliroma tou theou” — “…that you be filled to the whole of God’s fullness.” Haven’t checked the Greek, but I’m just guessing here; “pan” (‘every’, ‘entirety’, ‘whole’) is accusative (after ‘eis’: ‘to’ ‘into’ ‘unto’). That looks strange coming after the passive verb “be filled.” I’d expect a different preposition, something like “with” (“be filled with…”) so that what follows is a description of what goes inside us. But here the prep “eis” suggests that the filling is our going ‘into’ or ‘unto’ God’s fullness. It’s like we get filled full with what we explore. We’re filled with exploration. Gregory’s point exactly.

There’s one more weird thought I had about ‘eis’ here. It could be a ‘telic’ eis, which shows purpose and gets translated something like “with a view to.” If this ‘eis’ is telic, then the meaning is “we’re filled [by what the verse doesn’t say, but the context tell us—the love of Christ] with a view to God’s own fullness.” Just a suggestion. I don’t think that’s his meaning though. I don’t think the “fullness of God” is presently unrealized, waiting for us to come and fill up.

Tom

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.  None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.  However, as it is written:
       "What no eye has seen,
       what no ear has heard,
       and what no human mind has conceived—
       these things God has prepared for those who love him" [b]—

     for God has revealed them to us by his Spirit.

    The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.  For who knows a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit within? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.  We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.  This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.  The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.  The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,  for, 
       "Who has known the mind of the Lord
       so as to instruct him?" 
       But we have the mind of Christ.

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/13/2009 1:40:52 PM (GMT-6)

Exhibit A.    (Read the rest)

**************************************************

"Pride renders faith impossible."
Andrew Murray

----------------------------------------------------

Unless a man gives himself entirely to the Cross, in a spirit of humility and self-abasement; unless he casts himself down to be trampled underfoot by all and despised, accepting injustice, contempt and mockery; unless he undergoes all these things with joy for the sake of the Lord, not claiming any kind of human reward whatsoever--glory or honor or pleasures of food, drink and clothing--he cannot become a true Christian.

St Mark the Monk
quoted by Kallistos Ware in "The Orthodox Way"

------------------------------------------

From Perfect joy according to Saint Francis of Assisi

And now, brother, listen to the conclusion. Above all the graces and all the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Christ grants to his friends, is the grace of overcoming oneself, and accepting willingly, out of love for Christ, all suffering, injury, discomfort and contempt; for in all other gifts of God we cannot glory, seeing they proceed not from ourselves but from God, according to the words of the Apostle, "What hast thou that thou hast not received from God? and if thou hast received it, why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it?" But in the cross of tribulation and affliction we may glory, because, as the Apostle says again, "I will not glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." Amen."

----------------------------------------------

For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

Isaiah 66:2

-------------------------------------------------------

For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

Isaiah 57:15

--------------------------------------------------------

O people, the LORD has told you what is good, and this is what he requires of you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/13/2009 8:08:52 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/13/2009 10:14:35 PM (GMT-6)

4

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/15/2009 2:08:00 AM (GMT-6)

This may help, A. 

"Unless a man gives himself entirely to the Cross, in a spirit of humility and self-abasement; unless he casts himself down to be trampled underfoot by all and despised, accepting injustice, contempt and mockery; unless he undergoes all these things with joy for the sake of the Lord, not claiming any kind of human reward whatsoever--glory or honor or pleasures of food, drink and clothing--he cannot become a true Christian."

I'll try to say what I think St. Mark was saying more positively:

One cannot be considered a "true Christian" if one is not "dead to the world" and only "alive to God" in one's love for Jesus, through taking up one's cross, and dying daily in all circumstances.  When all things are done solely for the "joy of the Lord" (and not for any other "biological hypostasis-grounded" reason of conventional wisdom, as practical and self-affirming as all that may be) such that one only relates in loving humility in all circumstances to God and others...only THEN one grow into "true Christianity"..and not before.   The "simple eye" towards God that frees one to "choose the Cross" in the same Spirit that Jesus did.

Basically, he talking about being completely centered in Christ, such that one is willing to "experience Christ's sufferings" in their very beings at any given time and situation.  Like Paul was, I guess.

Make sense, A?

----------------------------------

Listen.   Greg did good.

12/13/2009 – Returning To The Sacred Shhh...., Greg Boyd  –  sermon length is 41:40 minutes
When we work for justice in the world, we are partnering with what God is already doing. It’s important that we seek God first, rest in God’s love, and only then can respond faithfully to the call to partner with God by fighting for justice in our communities. [Focus: Luke 2:8-12] Focus Scripture – Luke 2:8-12
	Audio - 5.3 mb High-Quality Audio - 20.3 mb QuickTime Video (mp4) - 118.2 mb Windows Media Video (wmv) - 97.9 mb

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/15/2009 10:49:36 AM (GMT-6)