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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Wanted: Kierkegaard's "Works of Love" Readers! | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 11:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Yo. For anyone who's read "Works of Love", particularly the section on "Praising Love." Got a question or a request. Give me your perspective on the "inwardness" aspect of praising love. I'll ask a question about the "outwardness" aspect later. But because I'm on the "self-denial" tip...and praising love, IMO, seems to integrally deal with self-denial, I only wanna focus here first.
I guess I can share my curiousity. As I look at this, it seems interestingly "mystical" in many of it's aspects. And when I think of hesychasm, kenosis, and " the Jesus Prayer" in relationship to SK's "inwardness" thought here, it seems to fit almost perfectly to me. But I may be reading into things. That's why I'd like some thoughts.
Thanks. 
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/15/2009 10:26:39 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom. I think I'm on to something, man.
I'm starting to think that SK hits on something that suggests something: In our terms, simultaneously self-denying, God-affirming humility is an aspect of the universal "logos" for human beings. SK says that it's something that ANY human being can live in, unlike prolific artistic creativity. We act CONTRARY to our universally human "logos-definition" when we are NOT "walking humbly before our God." We are living OUTSIDE OF our true human nature when we can't "see" God within our pure, single-intented hearts.
Jesus shows us ALL of this...because he's truly 100% human.
But I could be jumpin' the gun here. That's why I want some thoughts from others who've read it.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/15/2009 11:02:53 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 12:11 PM (GMT -6) | | And actually...now that I think about it...I think the Jesus Prayer definitely goes with the Lutherian "simultaneous saint and sinner" bipolarity idea that SK pressuposes.
Saying "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." while at the same time asking Jesus' Father for (and receiving) his Holy Spirit.
Hmmm...
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/15/2009 11:18:53 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Funny. I got the Jesus prayer copied and ready to paste into this BEFORE I pulled the thread back up and saw that you mentioned it.
Ha.
The Spirit of Jesus provides instantaneous transfer of information to and between persons connected to Him, right? So, I guess we shouldn't be surprised. I guess.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 12:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 1:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Bi-polar assymetical relational unity between Christ and the Christian: Kierkegaardian "self-denial"
"Without Me, you can do nothing."
--Jesus Christ
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
--the Christian
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Sidestuff...
Interesting. Looking at this...looking at Storm's commentary on the WoL...
VIII: The Victory of Reconciliation in Love Which Wins the Vanquished
Inasmuch as this discussion is about the vanquished, a first victory which has been won is presupposed. What is this? It is to triumph over evil with the good.... The good the lover has done toward the unloving, indeed, the longer he has persevered in repaying evil with good, the closer, in a certain sense, lies the danger that evil nevertheless finally overcomes the lover, if in no other way than by making him cold and indifferent toward such an unloving person. O, a great kingdom's depth of goodness, which only the lover has, the steady warmth of an unquenchable, purified fire, is needed to hold out for a long time of repaying good with evil!—But this victory is won; the unloving one is the vanquished (p. 308).
and...
Two are required in every strife, and now there is only one: the unloving one, for the lover is in reconciliation his best friend, who wishes to win the vanquished. To win the vanquished. What a wonderful reversal there is in the whole thing!... [But] it is humiliating to be vanquished; therefore the vanquished person avoids particularly the one who vanquished him, because his downfall becomes greater by contrast and no one makes his downfall more clear than the one who vanquished him. And yet here it is the victor who is to win the vanquished, and consequently they must be brought together (p. 311f.).
As I read this, I couldn't help but think of Revelation 21.
"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.* (OL's Note: Isaiah 60, the Glory of Zion) Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Was SK a hopeful universalist, I wonder...
*Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations—
their kings led in triumphal procession.
For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.
"The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
the pine, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn the place of my sanctuary;
and I will glorify the place of my feet.
The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/15/2009 1:23:35 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/15/2009 2:38 PM (GMT -6) | | hmmm...thought so...
1
2
"But I do not pretend to be better than others. What the old bishop said about me--that I talked as if everybody else was on the road to hell--is simply not true. No, if anyone wants to be able to say that I talk about going to hell, then I talk like this--'If the rest are all going to hell, then I am going along.' This is the way I speak if anyone is able to say in any sense that I talk about going to hell. But I do not believe it. On the contrary, I believe that we will all be saved--and I, too--something which arouses my deepest wonder."
--SK
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 12/17/2009 7:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I've been going back and re-reading that section. I'm not intending to ignore you. But it's been a while.
At the outset, I'm wondering to what degree SK's understanding aligns with your understanding when you say, "We are living OUTSIDE OF our true human nature when we can't "see" God within our pure, single-intented hearts."
Mostly I'm thinking about the usage of the word "within" here. Not sure, but the whole "God as the middle term" stuff has a different feel to me: there's a "middle" which is distinct from both "us" and the "beloved".
I'm also wondering if SK considers any of us to have "pure, single-intended hearts." Nonetheless, the point in this passage is that ANYONE can love; it doesn't require some unique gifting, such as a poet may have.
Post Edited (Corey) : 12/17/2009 6:17:38 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/17/2009 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for chippin' in at all, Corey!
Corey:
At the outset, I'm wondering to what degree SK's understanding aligns with your understanding when you say, "We are living OUTSIDE OF our true human nature when we can't "see" God within our pure, single-intented hearts."
Mostly I'm thinking about the usage of the word "within" here. Not sure, but the whole "God as the middle term" stuff has a different feel to me: there's a "middle" which is distinct from both "us" and the "beloved".
I guess I was thinking that the "inwardness" spoken of deals with a very personal, individual experience where God is experienced through pure, single intented heart. The situation seems like one between the heart and God alone.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/18/2009 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey and Selah!
If you are reading "Praising Love" now, in WoL...I'd like your perspective on the idea of being "God's instrument" that SK takes...specifically with the "inwardness" aspect.
I cannot lie. I truly LOVE the idea of being God's instrument...particularly the WAY the SK describes it. Hmm. Hey, Tom! Maybe that's MY intution that influences all my thinking. The idea of only being a self defined by God's Love and Activity exhihilates my mind and heart. And the cool thing? You and I both know that our current view of theosis ALLOWS for this...while preserving the beauty of distinct inter-personality of relationship between Creator God and Creation... (which has been YOUR chief intuition all along, right, Tom? )
I remember reading some monk say something like this: "I am God's flute, and God's Spirit is the air that blows through me. Hear our song." I was like...yeaaaaah. That's my heart.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/18/2009 10:09:51 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/18/2009 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | As I think about this section, a particularly trite image comes to me.
Our idea of self-importance (rather than God-importance) is dysfunctional like unto if the donkey that Jesus rode into town seriously thought that IT were being applauded by the throngs of people there ACTUALLY to see and welcome Jesus.
If the donkey were to understand what it is and what was happening, it would see itself as a chosen instrument of the King of Glory, and let the applause go where it needs to. (Interestingly enough, unbeknownest to the donkey, he would be immortalized in a biblical story told and retold...even in 2009 America...all because it was an "instrument" that Jesus had need for)
As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away."
This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
"Say to Daughter Zion,
'See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.' "
The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on. A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,
"Hosanna to the Son of David!"
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Hosanna in the highest heaven!"
When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this?"
The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/18/2009 10:51:59 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/18/2009 11:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Hell, yeah, buddy. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT on that.
You were kinda my "anchor"...ya know? Kept the Scissortail from flying TOO high and away.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/18/2009 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | But you know what...this explains a lot.
I've always wanted to be "used" of the Lord ever since I first got called into ministry...even in my darkest times of "Mephiness". I really DID want to be available. Maybe that's where the theistic bootlicking came from, in part. I would rather resign myself totally...than to be fundamentally DISOBEDIENT to the Voice. Some part of me has ALWAYS wanted to be an instrument of God.
That's why I came to Minnesota.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/18/2009 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | | When you get back, it's TGIF...all the way homie! I'm buyin'!!
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/18/2009 7:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.
--St. Francis of Assisi
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 3:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Page 106.
The 7 things in the summary seem to mesh VERY well with SK's idea of self-denial and what it lead to: continual remembrance of God and of oneself "before" God.
Basically it's living this belief
"Jesus, without Your Presence, I am nothing and I can DO nothing...but with Your Presence, I truly "am"...and I can do everything. Lord and Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/19/2009 2:29:28 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 3:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Thoughts, Corey? Selah? Y'all are the resident SK experts, ya know...
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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