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One Love
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| Posted 12/20/2009 12:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism
From the Back Cover
To some Western evangelicals, the practices of Eastern Orthodoxy seem mysterious and perhaps even unbiblical. Then again, from an Orthodox perspective, evangelicals lack the spiritual roots provided by centuries-old church traditions. Are the differences between these two branches of Christianity so sharp that to shake hands is to compromise the gospel itself? Or is there room for agreement? Are Eastern Orthodoxy and evangelicalism at all compatible?
Yes, no, maybe—this book allows five leading authorities to present their different views, have them critiqued by their fellow authors, and respond to the critiques. Writing from an Orthodox perspective with a strong appreciation for evangelicalism, Bradley Nassif makes a case for compatibility. Michael Horton and Vladimir Berzonsky take the opposite stance from their respective evangelical and Orthodox backgrounds. And George Hancock-Stefan (evangelical) and Edward Rommen (Orthodox) each offer a qualified "perhaps."
The interactive Counterpoints forum is ideal for comparing and contrasting the different positions to understand the strengths and weaknesses of these two important branches of Christianity and to form a personal conclusion regarding their compatibility.
The Counterpoints series provides a forum for comparison and critique of different views on issues important to Christians. Counterpoints books address two categories: Church Life and Exploring Theology. Complete your library with other books in the Counterpoints
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/20/2009 12:09:45 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:05 AM (GMT -6) | | We gotta pick this one up, Tom...
Beyond Salvation: Eastern Orthodoxy and Classical Pentecostalism on Becoming Like Christ
by Edmund J. Rybarczyk
Product Description
Despite their historical and cultural differences, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Classical Pentecostals share some surprising similarities. This study locates both traditions within their cultural and philosophical meta-contexts and suggests avenues of mutual understanding.
about the Author
Ed Rybarczyk is assistant professor of Systematic Theology at Vanguard University. He earned his doctorate in Historical Theology at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, and is a minister with the Assemblies of God.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:15 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm starting to wonder. Is there a possible connection between EO, Pentecostalism, and Evangelicalism that we can tap into, Tom?
Hmmm...
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Why I am not a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox by Scot McKnight.
Read it. Heh. Oh brother.
I know, right? 
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:18 AM (GMT -6) | | I say JOHN WESLEY's the connection. I think...
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/20/2009 12:22:13 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:21 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
All I can say is...READ THE FATHERS. Read Meyendorf and Lossky and Zizy too. Yeah. But you HAVE to read the FATHERS for yourself. It's just not the same.
Agreed. That's my point though. As I understand things, Wesley READ the Fathers and studied EO theology. AND he is a historical precursor to both Pentecostalism AND Evangelicalism.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:31 AM (GMT -6) | | | Bootleg, but still readable...
John Wesley and Eastern Orthodoxy
Influences, Convergences, and Differences
Randy L. Maddox
Asbury Theological Journal 45.2 (1990): 29–53
Even a cursory reading of Wesley shows that these recovered early Greek theological voices were important to him. This influence is particularly evident in some of those convictions that have been at the heart of the debate over his distinctive “place”. Since these early Greek theologians remain normative for the Eastern Orthodox tradition, the possibility that Wesley should be read in terms of this tradition, or as a bridge between Eastern and Western Christianity has begun to receive scattered attention.
Seems like Charles Wesley had some stuff too...see here.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/20/2009 12:38:29 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 1:43 AM (GMT -6) | | | Tom Oord, huh? Makes sense.
You cool with him, right?
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Thinking of Wesley.
"about a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone,* for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death. I began to pray with all my might for those who had in a more especial manner despitefully used me and persecuted me. I then testified openly to all there what I now first felt in my heart."
--John Wesley
I think this is what Wesley heard was THIS from Martin Luther's Preface to the Epistle to the Romans...
"Faith" is not the human notion and dream which some regard as faith. When they see that it is not followed by an improvement of life nor by good works, while they are, nevertheless, able to hear and talk much of faith, they fall into the error of saying: Faith is not sufficient; we must do works if we want to become godly and be saved. The reason is because, when hearing the Gospel, they go to work and by their own power frame up a thought in their heart which says: I believe. That they regard as genuine faith. But, inasmuch as it is a human figment and thought of which the inmost heart is not sensible, it accomplishes nothing and is not accompanied by any improvement.
On the contrary, faith is a divine work in us, which transforms us, gives us a new birth out of God, John 1:13, slays the old Adam, makes us altogether different men in heart, affection, mind, and all powers, and brings with it the Holy Spirit. Oh, it is a living, energetic, active, mighty thing, this faith. It cannot but do good unceasingly. There is no question asked whether good works are to be done, but before the question is asked the works have been done, and there is a continuous doing of them. But any person not doing such works is without faith. He is groping in the dark, looking for faith and good works, and knows neither what faith is nor what good works are, although he indulges in a lot of twaddle and flummery concerning faith and good works.
Faith is a living, daring confidence in the grace of God, of such assurance that it would risk a thousand deaths This confidence and knowledge of divine grace make a person happy, bold, and full of gladness in his relation to God and all creatures. The Holy Ghost is doing this in the believer. Hence it is that a person, without constraint, becomes willing and enthusiastic to do good to everybody, to serve everybody, to suffer all manner of afflictions, from love of God and to the praise of Him who has extended such grace to him. Accordingly, it is impossible to separate works from faith, just as impossible as it is to separate the power to burn and shine from fire. Accordingly, beware of your own false thoughts and of idle talkers, who pretend great wisdom for discerning faith and good works and yet are the greatest fools. Pray God that He may create faith in you; otherwise you will be without faith for ever and aye, no matter what you may plan and do.
Hmmmm...
Wait a second. Isn't the Theotokos (as appreciated in EO) the perfect example of being "all faith and grace"? And faith "being a divine work in us" goes RIGHT ALONG with the EO concept of Grace: God HIMSELF working in us, right?
Hmmm...
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* In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
‘Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin’s curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
I will stand, I will stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground (x2)
Is sinking sand (x2)
So I'll stand!
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/20/2009 11:09:28 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/20/2009 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Focus on the Centrality of "Christ," not the Centrality of "Orthodoxy"
Outside of Orthodoxy, have you noticed how the healthiest Christian communities around today are the ones who preach Christ, not their own denomination? They speak of Jesus, not their "Baptist," "Methodist" or "Pentecostal" identities. Yet, all we seem to hear from our pulpits is "Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy!" We are obsessed with self-definition through negation. It is a sick religious addiction. We often shore up our identity as Orthodox by constantly contrasting ourselves with Evangelicals or Catholics. I wish we would talk more about Christian faith, and less about "Orthodoxy."
--Bradley Nassif
I would definitely say that I appreciate this about Woodland Hills...
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/20/2009 11:15:55 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/22/2009 5:34 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Thanks, B.
December 22, 2009 Length: 41:57
In this final lesson on revivalism, Fr. Andrew explores the holiness movement, mega-churches, dispensationalism, fundamentalism, liberalism, and the so called emergent church movement.
Whole thing.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/22/2009 4:51:16 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/30/2009 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | |
December 19, 2008 Length: 37:44
Join guest host Turbo Qualls and OCA priest, author, and president of The Brotherhood of St Moses the Black, Fr. Moses Berry, in their conversation about Orthodox Christianity and why it is a gift to African Americans.
 Direct link  Download
***********************************
May 05, 2009 Length: 10:40
How do we draw more African Americans into the Orthodox Church? The same way we attract everyone else.
Here is a link to the website that Dr. Carlton mentions in this episode: God's Garden
Turbo's Conversion
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/30/2009 10:37:07 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/30/2009 5:48 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/30/2009 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/9/2010 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | |
In thinking about why I'm not (yet?) an Eastern Orthodox person, these are my issues...
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1) Fr. Hopko's teaching about tollbooths and salvation. If it's possible for baptized, chrismated Orthodox believers to have "tollbooth", hell experience...and for unbaptized, unchrismated believers to be saved unto theosis by God's Grace...then something's there that's not being explained.
2) The whole "external" vs "internal" Grace thing. If a Mother Teresa or C.S. Lewis can be ACKNOWLEDGED to be empowered by the "love of God" with the Spirit working through them to do the degree that they were, then things seem to become pretty academic. Unless someone REALLY wants to say that a baptized, chrismated Orthodox believer who is nominal in their faith actually are "Christian" and have DEEPER GRACE than those persons who are NOT true "Christians". Smells funny.
3)My convo with Fr. Proctor (Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in St. Paul) on epiklesis and "epicletic living"
4) Oikonomia. Bottom line: Is God's sense of "oikonomia" LESS GRACIOUS than that of the Eastern Orthodox Church when it comes to Christ the God-Man believing "Christians" who've had a so-called " heterodox baptism"...that supposedly has God's Uncreated Grace working in it somehow anyways? I'd like to think not.
and last, but definitely not least...
5) Cornelius the Roman Centurion. Bottom line: He was filled with the Holy Spirit (just like Peter and his group was, by his own attestation) BEFORE any laying on of hands or baptism...
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Baptism was ordered because the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit had ALREADY OCCURRED. This seems to blatently go against the idea that Satan indwells the center of the human soul UNTIL one is chrismated or some such thing.
Thus teach the holy fathers. Saint Diadoch is the most definite among them, when he says that before holy baptism Divine grace moves a man towards good from without, while Satan is hidden in the depths of the heart and soul. But after a man has been baptised, the demon hovers outside the heart, while grace enters within (Philokalia 4. 76).
Was Satan hidden in the depths of Cornelius' heart and soul BEFORE he was baptized...even AFTER the "gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured" upon him?
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Until some EO person can clear these up for me, I don't see any reason for me to assume that the Holy Spirit of Christ (which allows me to say "Abba, Father" in the first place) does NOT currently reside in the center of my very being, empowering me to be a child of God...just because I didn't get some Holy Chrism placed upon me. (See " Oily Ecclesiology" thread )
I'm open to any EO person who wants to talk to me about all this...for real.
And talk about hardcore...to this guy (Archbishop Ilarion) I wouldn't even be considered a Christian AT ALL.
Thus it must be considered as the most vital necessity of the present time to confess openly that indisputable truth that Christ created precisely the Church and that it is absurd to separate Christianity from the Church and to speak of some sort of Christianity apart from the Holy Orthodox Church of Christ.
This truth, we believe, will illuminate, for many, the final goal in their wearisome journey of seeking; it will show them, not in lifeless teaching, but in Church life, where they can truly "recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Tim. 2:26). This truth will also help us to identify Church life and to "gather the separated" children of the Church, so that all may be one, as the Lord Jesus Christ prayed before His sufferings.
We shall end our discourse with one parable of the type used by the holy fathers. The Church is like a strong oak, and a man outside the Church is like a flying bird. See how the unfortunate bird struggles in a strong wind. How uneven is its flight! It either flies upward, or else it is overturned by the wind, or it moves slightly forward, and then it is again pushed backward. That is how a person is carried by the winds of false teaching. But just as the bird is calmed in the dense branches of the tree and peacefully looks out of its refuge on the storm raging past, so a man finds peace when he runs to the Church. From his calm refuge he looks out at the ferocious storm "near the Church walls" and he sorrows for the unfortunate people who are overtaken by this tempest outside the Church and who delay in seeking shelter under its abundant Grace, and he prays to the Lord: "Unite them to Thy Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. . . that they also may glorify with us the most honorable and majestic name of God praised in the Holy Trinity."
Hmmm...but this seems to DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the idea of THIS GUY who actually CITES Archbishop Ilarion in another work...
On the basis of this cursory look at Holy Scripture and Patristic writings, it seems entirely permissible to call one a “Christian” who professes faith in Christ—without knowingly embracing heresies that attack the Holy Trinity or the Person of Christ—and who is striving to be obedient to His Commandments. A failure to extend sincerely the courtesy of such a label causes unnecessary offense and gives the impression that heterodox Christians have no relationship with God at all. This would place them on the same level as pagans, which is decidedly not the case. In this regard we offer these wise and pastorally sensitive comments:
Of course, there is no reason to view these [heterodox] confessions and sects as on the same level with non-Christian religions. One cannot deny that the reading of the word of God has a beneficial influence upon everyone who seeks in it instruction and strengthening of faith, and that devout reflection on God the Creator, the Provider and Saviour, has an elevating power there among Protestants also. We cannot say that their prayers are totally fruitless if they come from a pure heart, for in every nation he that feareth Him. . .is accepted with Him (Acts 10:35). The Omnipresent Good Provider God is over them, and they are not deprived of God’s mercies. They help to restrain moral looseness, vices, and crimes; and they oppose the spread of atheism. But all this does not give us grounds to consider them as belonging to the Church.
Concerning those who are never afforded the opportunity to encounter Orthodoxy it is perfectly acceptable to conclude that the God of Love may place them in His Heavenly Kingdom. Ultimately, God looks upon the heart of every man—having mercy upon those whom He chooses to have mercy (Romans 9:18)—and rewards each according to his intentions and deeds (Romans 2:6ff).
Sooooooo...who's right?
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/9/2010 9:30:11 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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