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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/20/2009 1:35 PM (GMT -6)

Who said the following?

If apatheia [divine impassibility] is the name of the state in which the mind cannot be touched by any emotion whatsoever, who would not judge this insensitivity to be the worst of all moral defects?

Hahaha. You'll never guess in a million years.

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/20/2009 6:09 PM (GMT -6)

I'll check back in 6 hours to hopefully find out.

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/20/2009 6:11 PM (GMT -6)

GOOGLE says this:

Emotion in Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas: A Way Forward ...

emotion [affectus] whatsoever, who would not judge this insensitivity to be the worst of all moral defects? There is nothing absurd in the assertion that ...
doi.wiley.com/10.1111/j.1468-2400.2005.00159.x

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118714674/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Is it one of these two?

(o)

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/21/2009 3:55 AM (GMT -6)

Augustine. City of God. Yep.

Point is, apatheia wasn't believed (even by the staunchest of adherents, like Augustine, the devil himself) to involve the inability to experience emotion.

Interesting however that though David Hart agrees, he recently insisted that God does NOT have emotional experiences and that God is "immune" from such things. That doesn't help. And Hart is too careful and articulate to be misunderstood here.

I don't think there's total agreement on it is my point, nor do I think there's just ONE understanding of apatheia that reigned supreme from the ante-Nicene fathers all the way through to Aquinas.

Greg's gonna argue that there's NO sense in which we can or should affirm a doctrine of 'apatheia', and he'll produce some examples of taking the doctrine too far (which are easy to find). I'm not sure all the Fathers took it too far, but the redeeming examples are hard to come by. What complicates it is that the Fathers did all seem to believe God was timeless and that there was no unrealized potentiality in God. That's got to go if an acceptable doctrine of apatheia is to have any hope of being embraced by open theists.

I'm finding that they were a mixed bad. Like most of us today, some of their beliefs (like timelessness and the denial of potentiality in God) contradicted other of their beliefs (like the experience of emotion, or the Incarnation for goodness sake) but they just didn't see this, or they saw it and chalked it up to "mystery."

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

Post Edited (Tom) : 12/21/2009 3:01:53 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/22/2009 10:16 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Greg's gonna argue that there's NO sense in which we can or should affirm a doctrine of 'apatheia', and he'll produce some examples of taking the doctrine too far (which are easy to find).

"Awwwww, &#%$!!!!" (Explicit song, beware! Play at your own risk. skull

)

Read pp. 116-117.

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/22/2009 9:19:37 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/22/2009 10:23 AM (GMT -6)

Check your email. See that last email from Greg?

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/22/2009 10:25 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, I did.

How can Gav. be totally revisioning...given what we see from Augustine, Maximus, Evagrius, and others?

shocked

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/22/2009 9:28:14 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/22/2009 10:26 AM (GMT -6)

Ah, got your note. Yeah, so you see it then. He's going for total body slam and then a full 3-count pin of the Fathers.

I wanna see it play out.

Dang.

T

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/22/2009 10:28 AM (GMT -6)

I DON'T. I can see Fr. Stephen AND Fr. Hopko calling him right up...

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/22/2009 10:29 AM (GMT -6)

Necessary Listening for Greg:

Ancient Faith Radio

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/22/2009 10:37 AM (GMT -6)

D: How can Gav. be totally revisioning...given what we see from Augustine, Maximus, Evagrius, and others?

T: Yeah. Well, basically the Fathers REALLY believed God was impassible in the Neoplatonic sense, but that there was no selling this popularly (or squaring it with the Bible). So they did what Calvinists do, play the "in such a way that" card. So you can tell people God has compassion and feels for them, etc., but "in such a way that" he really doesn't experience these things.

Dude, it's gonna go down. I'm telling ya! But he's still a ways off. You get Paul on our side and then we three will sit with Greg in the Spring.

Tom

"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/22/2009 10:40 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
You get Paul on our side and then we three will sit with Greg in the Spring.

I think you're right, man. I'ma hit Paul up on this...and soon. He'll listen.

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 12/22/2009 10:41 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
He's going for total body slam and then a full 3-count pin of the Fathers.

That "rebel" streak of Greg's is gonna get him in deep soup, yo.

I. D. G. A. F.

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

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