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One Love
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| Posted 12/26/2009 10:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/26/2009 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | | Do the presuppositions of this movie line up with this?
"Some will kill to have it. I will kill to protect it."
Is Eli following Pikuach Nefesh to it's logical conclusion...without the counterbalance of Mesiras Nefesh? Hmmm...
An exception in which killing another person is permitted is the case of a rodef (aggressor), who may be killed in order to save the life of oneself or another. This permits self-defense and wartime killings in Judaism. Also, abortion is permitted in Jewish law if the unborn fetus is endangering the mother's life, because the fetus is considered to be a rodef. The "rodef" assertion is also used to permit the separation of conjoined twins when it is likely or even certain that one will die as a result if the operation if this is necessary to save the other.
Biblically-sanctioned executions may be performed, though they are not performed today.
Hmmm...
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/26/2009 9:58:36 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/26/2009 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Thought:
Would the Cross have occurred for Jesus had he been a lover of self-defense more than a lover of "aggressors"?
Probably not, right?
Now, apply all this to the whole "Myth of a Christian Nation" / "Myth of a Christian Religion" thing. Seems to me that in both ideas, many American Christians like Pat Robertson and others constantly operate by a form of Pikuach Nefesh that loves to LIVE in the "exception" of killing people (just war, "blow them all away in the name of the Lord" , etc)...instead of taking Jesus's interpretation of "murder" seriously.*
Y'all see that, too?
"Religion is Power"
--tagline from "The Book of Eli"
Lord, have mercy on us all...
* "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to that person; then come and offer your gift.
and...
At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/26/2009 10:33:20 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/26/2009 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I think Maximus the Confessor would have let his hand be cut off by aggressors...before cutting off someone else's hand in self-defense. What do you think?
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
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One Love
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| Posted 12/26/2009 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | Death as Victory
"The Orthodox Way"
Kallistos Ware
pp 80-83At some thoughts a man stands perplexed, above all at the sight of human sin, and he wonders whether to combat it by force or by humble love. Always decide: "I will combat it by humble love." If you resolve on that once and for all, you can conquer the whole world. Loving humility is a terrible force: it is the strongest of all things, and there is nothing else like it.Ware quoting Dostoevsky's "Starets Zozima"
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One Love
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| Posted 12/26/2009 4:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | Whatcha think, Tom?
I couldn't help but notice this...
Also, abortion is permitted in Jewish law if the unborn fetus is endangering the mother's life, because the fetus is considered to be a rodef.
Hmmm...
I remember when I really believed this unreservedly and wholeheartedly (thinking about my wife and all). Now I'm not so sure. What if a form of Mesiras Nefesh actually REQUIRES "self-denial" in these cases for God-lovers?
Although rare, there are instances within Jewish law that mandate a Jew to sacrifice his or her own life rather than violate a religious prohibition. In these situations, this phenomenon of mandatory self-sacrifice overrides the ordinarily stringent counter-demand to transgress any religious restrictions in order to preserve human life.
What do you think?
Not to be trite but, "What would Jesus do?" or rather, what does "self-denial" and "self-sacrificial disinterestedness" grounded in love of God require? (Being Christ-like)
These considerations would seem to totally disavow any pragmatic and/or technical argumentation about "when life begins" or any such thing.
Hmm...
Talk to me, bro.
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/26/2009 3:19:39 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 8:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
What would Jesus do? We don't have any examples of him making those kinds of decisions that I can see. Too bad I guess. Woulda been nice to see Jesus make such a decision (like choosing which lives, a wife giving birth or the baby?). The doctor (or the husband) has to choose which one lives. Jesus would most likely step outside the options and heal whatever the condition was so that both mother and child lived.
Gotcha. Jesus and miracles. All things are possible with God. Makes sense, I guess. How about the other thing: what does "self-denial" and "self-sacrificial disinterestedness" grounded in love of God require? I figure that Jesus is "all virtue", based on self-denial and self-sacrificial disinterestedness grounded in love of God. So, being this, by the power of God's Spirit, IS being Christ-like.
Once that stance is taken, then looking at the ideas of "God-devoted mandatory self-sacrifice" (Mesiras Nefesh)...and Jesus' re-definition of "You Shall Not Murder"...what's the choice, all things considered? Again, I'm just not as rock hard sure the other way as I once was.
***********************************
Tom:
Just being honest? I'd choose my wife over the infant. One will argue that I 'judged' the relative worth of the good that might further come from mother (against the child) and picked the mother. But is that any different than choosing the relative worth of the good that might come from the child (against the mother) and picking the child? I don't know. But my action or inaction will result is SOMEBODY'S death.
Well. It's not really a matter of what WE (you and ME) would choose. It would be a matter of what our WIVES would choose. It would be their bodies and their lives...not ours, specifically. And it would be their decision whether or not they wanted to devote their lives to God in self-denial and self-sacrificial disinterestedness in trying to preserve the baby's life even at the risk of their own. If they made this decision for themselves and asks us what we thought...what kind of response could we give to convince them otherwise? Especially when WE (you and ME) would want to devote OUR lives to God, loving our wives as Christ loved the Church. See what I'm saying? It's not a unilateral choice for us (ie who's worth more: wife or child), it a matter of loving our wives if they CHOSE to be willing to die for the child's life.
Aki and I actually talked about this. And I'm glad I did. I actually learned what she thought on the matter. Wow.
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Dude,
I'm coming to the scary conclusion in my mind that much of Christianity has never taken the Lord Jesus' "You Shall Not Murder" commandment re-definition seriously. Ever. The Crusades. Inquistions. Calvin's Geneva. Preachers blowing away abortion doctors. Preachers talking about "blowing people away in the Lord's Name."
Christians, especially, American Christians, have always manipulated the Pikuach Nefesh idea to murder others. Example: How Christian leaders would torture and kill "heretics" for the good of their eternal soul and such. Some sense of "we're doing this to you for your own good."
We've never totally followed Jesus in his interpretation of You Shall Not Murder.
I haven't, I know. Personally, I haven't. Not in my heart. I have been willing to kill and allow murder for all KINDS of self-justified, rationalized reasons. I came to that conclusion yesterday...and wept bitterly. And asked Jesus to forgive me. Still I ask...
Lord, have mercy on my soul.
Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. And Saul approved of their killing him [Stephen].
(listening music)
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/27/2009 7:29:12 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | | לא תרצח
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
"Which ones?" he inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
...
You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to that person; then come and offer your gift.
...
The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
...
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"you are doing right. But if you show favoritism*, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
*-What shows more favoritism then DECIDING who to kill and who NOT to kill?
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | |
"But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
...
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? As for those who come to me and hear my words and put them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But those who hear my words and do not put them into practice are like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
Thus saith the Lord. Heh. 
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/27/2009 8:08:17 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 10:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm... I did a google seach for "Orthodoxy" and "You shall not murder". This is what came up.
Gleanings from Orthodox Christian Authors and the Holy Fathers on abortion
Wherefore I beseech you, flee fornication . . . Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? -- where there are many efforts at abortion? -- where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let conntinue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born. Why then do thou abuse the gift of God, and fight with His laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter? For with a view to drawing more money by being agreeable and an object of longing to her lovers, even this she is not backward to do, so heaping upon thy head a great pile of fire. For even if the daring deed be hers, yet the causing of it is thine"
391 AD John Chrysostom Homilies on Romans 24.
Daaayim.
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/27/2009 9:27:31 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 10:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Jesus Creed (Scot McKnight)
Thou Shalt Not Murder
Thursday November 12, 2009 This week's commandment is #5: "You shall not murder." Easy enough to understand, except when it comes to defense against an intruder -- or when a person is in the military -- or when a person is a judge who makes decisions about the death penalty -- or when it comes to what we call "involuntary manslaughter" -- like driving too fast and accidentally hitting another car and someone dying as a result.
And what about euthanasia? Or what about a medical doctor who consults with a family and takes a person off life support?
So, what is murder? Some would say it is unauthorized taking of someone's life, as one finds in Exodus 21:12, Leviticus 24:17 or Deuteronomy 27:24. Also important is Numbers 35:20-21 where the sense of "murder" makes the meaning clear.
At the bottom of this commandment is a double consideration: humans are made in God's image or are Eikons of God and in a human is "blood" -- the life (Gen 9:6). ["Whoever sheds human blood, by other humans must his blood be shed; for in God's image God has made humankind."]
But what about Jesus? What does he say?
The fundamental relationship of humans to God and to others is love according to Jesus: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. This fundamental relationship anchors the command not to murder.
It is not that Jesus values the sanctity of life -- which I find to be an abstraction -- but that he values the sanctity of persons, persons made as God's Eikons who are loved by God and therefore to be loved by his followers.
This forces the question of whether or not Jesus thereby moves beyond the Old Testament command to prohibit all killing, including death penalty and war killings, or whether he affirmed those traditions. Clearly Christians have not always agreed on this one. While most of the Reformers were in favor of the permissibility of killing in both war and the legal system, the Anabaptists believed -- and still do -- and I'm one of them -- that killing through the death penalty and in war are contrary to the way of Jesus and therefore contrary to what followers of Jesus are called to do. I believe this is the plain teaching of Matthew 5:38-48.
posted by Scot McKnight @ 7:05pm
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One Love
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| Posted 12/27/2009 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting...http://en.allexperts.com/q/Eastern-Orthodox-1456/2009/11/Christians-killing.htm
-------------------------------------------
Question
My questions arise from a conflict I have in resolving the idea of a Christian killing another human being. Luke 3:14 reads: Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay."
Here Jesus doesn't take the opportunity to say "Thou shalt not kill" to men whose job it is to kill. yet when he is betrayed in the garden and Peter takes up his sword to attack the soldier, Jesus rebukes peter. I am confused. I don't believe that it is ultimately God's will that anyone kill. What is the Orthodox viewpoint regarding when if at all killing is justifiable. We don't have many instances lately where God speaks directly from the Heavens and mandates a war as in the Old Testament.
I also have a hard time reconciling the fact that I live in a free country that obtained that freedom and preserves that freedom by killing people. Is this justifiable in God's sight? Is it ok to kill in order that I have freedom? Should we as Christians put our faith in God rather than our own might and trust him for whatever he gives us even if it is an unpleasant life without freedom or comfort? I know that this is not a simple question and may require a lengthy reply. I appreciate your insights and wisdom in answering other questions and I trust you for whatever answers you can provide from an Orthodox perspective.
Answer
Daniel,
Remember that God is the Author of life. Death, as the end of life, is always contrary to God's will. Death is not natural to any living creature. It is a symptom of the disease we call sin.
Because we live in a fallen world, we are often confronted with choices between two evils, and our only moral choice is to select the lesser evil.
You correctly note that Christ never told a soldier to lay down his arms. He enjoined them to serve honorably. He praised the Centurions' faith. But He never told them to abandon their sworn duty.
When an Orthodox soldier kills in combat, he must confess it as a sin, beg forgives, and suffer a period of excommunication. Even if he acted under a lawful order and in the defense of innocents, his taking of a human life is always a sin.
But please note that the Ten Commandments do not prohibit killing. They prohibit murder. "Thou shalt not kill" is a poor translation.
--------------------------------
Now that's interesting. This, at least, takes things seriously...that killing effectively separates one from God in the heart. But look at that. Being in war keeps the Christian in PERPETUAL disharmony with themselves and with God. The Jesus Prayer would have to be a standard on their lips every moment (a good thing), but always in the context of knowingly acting in known sin (a bad thing). Yes, to an extent, we ALL do this anyway, participating in our fallen structures as a whole. At the same time, this is ANYTHING but existing in totally LORDSHIP of Christ (who told us to love our neighbors as ourselves)...and there is no "just war."
Yup.
I'm definitely changing my mind on that. I don't believe in "justified war" or any such utilitarian concepts anymore now. Weird...but...
Ahhhhhhh...
PS: Count the biblical allusions in this.
Post Edited (One Love) : 12/27/2009 10:58:10 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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| Posted 1/22/2010 9:43 PM (GMT -6) | | | Hmm. Does it seem that the script is intentionally trying to make the bible look like a motivator unto politically incorrect behavior, or something? Sounds kinda wierd, otherwise. If it's at least a political statement, I could see some sense to that.
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 2/17/2010 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | | http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/movies/interviews/2010/denzelwashington-jan10.html
I went and saw "The Book of Eli" on Saturday night. Lost my ipod but it was returned to me by honest staff the next day. Praise the Lord. lol. Anyhoo...I thought those two links above were interesting. There are so many takes on this movie. In the movie, Washington worries that he has protected the book at all costs but has not taken it seriously enough to live it. Yet there is a point in the movie where he doesn't act when maybe we think he should. Personally, I understood the movie to be about there being a higher goal in life. A sort of modern day, "Pilgrim's Progress."
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 2/17/2010 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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