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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 6:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Must be the INTP-ness. Listen, in the epicletic moment in the Methodist view, it's basically just recognizing that the Power of the Holy Spirit "makes" the bread and wine to be MORE THAN just that to those who partake...but "re-presents" Christ's presence in a grace-full way.
 
Like unto this...on Epiklesis (EO style)
 
The prayer for the coming of the Holy Spirit is considered by the Orthodox to be an essential part of the Divine Liturgy. It is called the epiklesis, which means literally the calling upon or the invocation.
 
The Orthodox Church believes, as it prays, that the Holy Spirit is always "everywhere and fills all things." The invocation of the Holy Spirit at the Divine Liturgy is the solemn affirmation that everything in life which is positive and good is accomplished by the Spirit of God. Creation, salvation, eternal glorification; the entire work of God in making and saving the world is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who dwelt in Jesus making him the Christ. He is the one by whom Christ was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. He is the one who led Christ to the cross as the innocent Victim, the one who raised him from the dead as the triumphant Victor.
 
He is the one who guarantees the indwelling of God with men in the Holy Communion of the Church and in the life of the Kingdom to come.

Let's not hairsplit this to death. :-)


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 6:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Methodist Prayer: "Pour out your Holy Spirit on us gathered here, and on these gifts of bread and wine. Make them be for us the body and blood of Christ, that we may be for the world the body of Christ, redeemed by his blood."

Tom: I couldn't pray this AS IS because I don't see how the "elements" are to be "to us" what WE are to be (as the Body of Christ) FOR THE WORLD. No way. The bread becomes to me what I am to become to/for the world? No, the EVENT OF EXPERIENCING CHRIST IN THE FAITHFUL REMEMBERING OF HIS DEATH is to be for me what we are to be FOR THE WORLD. THAT I can pray for. I'm not asking God to do something IN THE ELEMENTS, least of which is to make them become for me that which I am to become for the world. God forbid.

Tom


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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 6:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Have you figured out my new signature yet? (The Y is a capital Greek upsilon, so U)

T


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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 6:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok, buddy. Give me YOUR PERSONAL twist on how YOU would change St. John C's liturgical wording...

Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered. And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ.

And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ.

Making the change by the Holy Spirit.

That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation.


Go for it. Spell it out for me.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 5:46:13 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 6:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I give. What's it mean?


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 6:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KIXYTΘEMTA.

Each letter is the first letter of a Greek word and the whole forms a prayer.

Any idea?

;o)


KIXYTΘEMTA

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 6:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ, Υιέ του Θεού, ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν


KIXYTΘEMTA

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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Heh. Friggin sweet!


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wow, change St. C? What will Bruce say?

Saint C: Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered. And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ. And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. Making the change by the Holy Spirit. That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation.

Tom: How about this:

We ask you, Holy Father, to sanctify us in this moment as we your Body celebrate your life and death through participation in this cup and this bread, your blood and your body. Send your Spirit to quicken us with your grace. May we be the gifts you seek, your life-giving Body for the world you love. Purify our souls, forgive our sin, bring the power and glory of your Kingdom to and through each one here gathered. Amen.

D, I’d say “through participation in this cup and this bread, your blood and body” which, if you’d like, KEEPS the mystery on the level of analogy and metaphor LINGUISTICALLY, as it is in Scripture. DON’T RESOLVE IT if you don’t want to. But make sure people understand that THEY are the ultimate elements. But we still disagree I think, because you believe we BECOME the ultimate elements (Christ's Body on earth) MATERIALLY via the actual material eaten and drunk. I don't locate it there. I locate it immaterially in the exchange of grace and faith ground in the perception/remembering of history's truth SYMBOLIZED in the elements.

Tom


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Post Edited (Tom) : 1/21/2010 6:05:35 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's my stab at it...

We offer unto You this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask You: Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered. By Your Spirit's power, re-present to us in this bread the precious Broken Body of Christ. And, in the same way, that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Christ.

That these gifts may be to we who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards You, and not for any judgment or condemnation.


Sound decent?


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ha! Oh brother.

How about "Represent to us in our partaking of [or "as we partake of"] this bread and cup..."?

Hehe

T


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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You baptize the infants. I'll baptize the adults.

You pray over the Cup and I'll serve it. I'll pray over the Bread and you serve it.

Haha!

T


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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
I’d say “through participation in this cup and this bread, your blood and body” which, if you’d like, KEEPS the mystery on the level of analogy and metaphor LINGUISTICALLY, as it is in Scripture. DON’T RESOLVE IT if you don’t want to. But make sure people understand that THEY are the ultimate elements. But we still disagree I think, because you believe we BECOME the ultimate elements (Christ's Body on earth) MATERIALLY via the actual material eaten and drunk. I don't locate it there. I locate it immaterially in the exchange of grace and faith ground in the perception/remembering of history's truth SYMBOLIZED in the elements.

If you recall, this was the crux of my conversation with Fr. Proctor. I basically asked "Can epicletic existence happen WITHOUT the elements?" to which I got the reply "Yes." Meaning we ARE the actual elements.  Remember that whole thing that I reposted not too long ago?

At the same time, I DO think that emphasis of the "material" aspect is helpful in that we remember that "we ARE what we EAT"...not in some sacreligious way. (People that are overly concerned about cannabilism are missing the point, just like Jesus' original hearers! For real! ) Christ's real presence and life courses through our bodies in the Eucharist JUST LIKE the bread and wine/juice we eat courses through our bodies. (This goes with the idea of theosis and deification of the FLESH. It all ties together.)

I don't see anything wrong with this.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 6:22:51 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
You baptize the infants. I'll baptize the adults.

You pray over the Cup and I'll serve it. I'll pray over the Bread and you serve it.

lol 


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm...yeah, I see it even MORE clearly now. How many evangelicals do YOU know that believe in "deification of the flesh" unto the kind of "shining" experiences of the Saints (like that of St. Seraphim)...or even of the Holy Spirit's use of RELICS of the Saints for the healing and blessing of others?

None. Zippo. Nada.

Why? Because there is no context to even see those things as any way LINKED to the Eucharist...at all. It can all stay in the mental immaterial realm, having nothing to do with the flesh really.
 
How could any genuine memorialist believe that anything NEAR deification of the flesh could occur through the Eucharist?  They couldn't.  Not in a million years.

Yeah...


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 6:29:23 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: At the same time, I DO think that emphasis of the “material” aspect is helpful…

T: More than helpful. It’s nearly necessary. I mean, we need CONCRETE symbols to aid memory and guide faith toward its proper object.

D: …in that we remember that “we ARE what we EAT”...

T: I agree. Imagine. A symbol you actually take into yourself, eat, and which becomes you. What better symbol of the actual impartation of grace through faith that gets transacted in the event?

D: (People that are overly concerned about cannabilism are missing the point, just like Jesus' original hearers! For real!) Christ's real presence and life courses through our bodies in the Eucharist JUST LIKE the bread and wine/juice we eat courses through our bodies.

T: Well, if you wish to dispel the charge of cannibalism, then you’ll have to disassociate the elements from the life of Christ (and the effects of that life) in our bodies, i.e., from the grace that’s experienced in communion. Otherwise, how IS your view different from cannibalism?

Tom


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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
Well, if you wish to dispel the charge of cannibalism, then you’ll have to disassociate the elements from the life of Christ (and the effects of that life) in our bodies, i.e., from the grace that’s experienced in communion. Otherwise, how IS your view different from cannibalism?

Think about it, dawg. WHY did the people balk at what Jesus said as being a "hard saying"...and walk away...as opposed to Peter and the crew who DID stay?

I think it was because they viewed it MORE IMPORTANT to not be cannibals then to cleave to the one who's words had "eternal life."

It was a heart issue. Same as today.

---------------------------------------------------

When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"

    26 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

    28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

    29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    30 So they asked him, "What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

    32 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

    34 "Sir," they said, "always give us this bread."

    35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

    41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

    43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' [d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which people may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

    52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

    53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

    60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

    61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit [e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

    66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

    67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

    68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God."

    70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 6:35:47 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: Hmmm...yeah, I see it even MORE clearly now. How many evangelicals do YOU know that believe in "deification of the flesh" unto the kind of "shining" experiences of the Saints (like that of St. Seraphim)...or even of the Holy Spirit's use of RELICS of the Saints for the healing and blessing of others? None. Zippo. Nada.

T: Right. None!

D: Why? Because there is no context to even see those things as any way LINKED to the Eucharist...at all. It can all stay in the mental immaterial realm, having nothing to do with the flesh really.

T: Yes and No. I mean, I don't believe the elements BECOME the literal/material risen body and blood of Jesus that we're eating and drinking. If I have to drop using the term "memorialist," then perhaps you could drop your denial of "cannibalism" (in that case). BUT...I absolutely believe in the glorification of the physical body. Protestants DO have room for this. It's Scripture. Our mortal bodies will be given life, they'll put on immortality, they'll be "changed" and become like his glorious body (while remaining created matter). Glorification of our bodies. Yep.

T


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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
Protestants DO have room for this. It's Scripture. Our mortal bodies will be given life, they'll put on immortality, they'll be "changed" and become like his glorious body (while remaining created matter). Glorification of our bodies. Yep.

You know and I know that the general Protestant understanding of "glorification of our bodies" is not seen as happening in this life at ANY TIME even in the santification process, but only post-resurrection. You know that, dawg...

Most Protestants I've seen don't teach about what the Transfiguration means for the potential of Christian life (ie divine glory shining from Jesus' PRE-death and resurrection human flesh)  Not one I've seen at all. 


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: Think about it, dawg. WHY did the people balk at what Jesus said as being a "hard saying"...and walk away...as opposed to Peter and the crew who DID stay? I think it was because they viewed it MORE IMPORTANT to not be cannibals then to cleave to the one who's words had "eternal life."

T: I can't follow your explanation. Why would cleaving to Christ's words make one a cannibal in the objectionable sense? It wouldn't. The only contextual grounds one has for saying Peter and the others accepted cannibalism would have to be Peter's own words, and they relate to the "words" of Jesus, not his literal flesh or blood. If John wrote this passage for a community to instruct them on the metaphysics of the elements (as cannibalism), we'd have to conclude he did a bad job. Not even Peter and the other got Jesus' point IF Jesus' point was that his literal physical body and material blood had to be eaten and drank.

T


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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Question: Why did many of Jesus's disciples leave him after his "eat my flesh" statments in your mind?


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: You know and I know that the general Protestant understanding of "glorification of our bodies" is not seen as happening in this life at ANY TIME even in the santification process, but only post-resurrection. You know that, dawg...

T: Can it be otherwise? Take any deified saint you wish to consider, did they die? Yes. Where's they're body? Well, their bodies are rotten and worm-ridden, in the ground.

What sort of deification of the flesh of believers are you hoping for in this life, one that elevates you PRIOR to glorification beyond death itself?

T


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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
If John wrote this passage for a community to instruct them on the metaphysics of the elements (as cannibalism), we'd have to conclude he did a bad job. Not even Peter and the other got Jesus' point IF Jesus' point was that his literal physical body and material blood had to be eaten and drank.

But Peter didn't allow his aversion of the thought of cannibalism (which he probably no doubt had like the others) take him away from what he knew was true: Christ was the Son of God. He had a sense of "unknowing" where he didn't let his mind get in the way of the truth.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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One Love
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nice avatar! ;-)

D: You know and I know that the general Protestant understanding of "glorification of our bodies" is not seen as happening in this life at ANY TIME even in the santification process, but only post-resurrection. You know that, dawg...

T: Can it be otherwise? Take any deified saint you wish to consider, did they die? Yes. Where's they're body? Well, their bodies are rotten and worm-ridden, in the ground.

What sort of deification of the flesh of believers are you hoping for in this life, one that elevates you PRIOR to glorification beyond death itself?


Jesus bled and died horribly AFTER his Transfiguration. But his human flesh shone with the light of Glory BEFORE the Cross happened. As it happened with Jesus, so can it happen with his believers. This is the reality that Gregory Palamas fought SO HARD to protect with the hesychasts.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2010 7:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: Question: Why did many of Jesus's disciples leave him after his "eat my flesh" statements in your mind?

T: Because they (the disciples) misunderstood Jesus.

Let me ask a question:

Why did Peter and the others who (on your view) correctly understood Jesus to be making cannibalism the way to eternal life answer Jesus' question ("Are you guys leaving also?" ) with "You alone have the 'words' to eternal life"? If I thought Jesus had just told me that cannibalizing his flesh meant eternal life, I answer his question with "Gimme a slice of your finger." I'm serious. Remember, Peter and the others are good Jews who don't eat human flesh. You really think they're here conceding to cannibalism because it's Jesus who's demanding it?

Tom


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