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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Question: Should Any Seriously Mentally-Challenged Persons Be Baptized? | Forum Quick Jump
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|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/21/2010 6:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Must be the INTP-ness. Listen, in the epicletic moment in the Methodist view, it's basically just recognizing that the Power of the Holy Spirit "makes" the bread and wine to be MORE THAN just that to those who partake...but "re-presents" Christ's presence in a grace-full way.
Like unto this...on Epiklesis (EO style)
The prayer for the coming of the Holy Spirit is considered by the Orthodox to be an essential part of the Divine Liturgy. It is called the epiklesis, which means literally the calling upon or the invocation. The Orthodox Church believes, as it prays, that the Holy Spirit is always "everywhere and fills all things." The invocation of the Holy Spirit at the Divine Liturgy is the solemn affirmation that everything in life which is positive and good is accomplished by the Spirit of God. Creation, salvation, eternal glorification; the entire work of God in making and saving the world is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who dwelt in Jesus making him the Christ. He is the one by whom Christ was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. He is the one who led Christ to the cross as the innocent Victim, the one who raised him from the dead as the triumphant Victor.
He is the one who guarantees the indwelling of God with men in the Holy Communion of the Church and in the life of the Kingdom to come. Let's not hairsplit this to death. 
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   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/21/2010 6:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ok, buddy. Give me YOUR PERSONAL twist on how YOU would change St. John C's liturgical wording...
Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered. And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ.
And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ.
Making the change by the Holy Spirit.
That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation.
Go for it. Spell it out for me.
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 5:46:13 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/21/2010 6:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
   |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/21/2010 7:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/21/2010 7:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | Wow, change St. C? What will Bruce say?
Saint C: Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered. And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ. And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. Making the change by the Holy Spirit. That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation.
Tom: How about this:
We ask you, Holy Father, to sanctify us in this moment as we your Body celebrate your life and death through participation in this cup and this bread, your blood and your body. Send your Spirit to quicken us with your grace. May we be the gifts you seek, your life-giving Body for the world you love. Purify our souls, forgive our sin, bring the power and glory of your Kingdom to and through each one here gathered. Amen.
D, I’d say “through participation in this cup and this bread, your blood and body” which, if you’d like, KEEPS the mystery on the level of analogy and metaphor LINGUISTICALLY, as it is in Scripture. DON’T RESOLVE IT if you don’t want to. But make sure people understand that THEY are the ultimate elements. But we still disagree I think, because you believe we BECOME the ultimate elements (Christ's Body on earth) MATERIALLY via the actual material eaten and drunk. I don't locate it there. I locate it immaterially in the exchange of grace and faith ground in the perception/remembering of history's truth SYMBOLIZED in the elements.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 1/21/2010 6:05:35 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
    |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/21/2010 7:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: I’d say “through participation in this cup and this bread, your blood and body” which, if you’d like, KEEPS the mystery on the level of analogy and metaphor LINGUISTICALLY, as it is in Scripture. DON’T RESOLVE IT if you don’t want to. But make sure people understand that THEY are the ultimate elements. But we still disagree I think, because you believe we BECOME the ultimate elements (Christ's Body on earth) MATERIALLY via the actual material eaten and drunk. I don't locate it there. I locate it immaterially in the exchange of grace and faith ground in the perception/remembering of history's truth SYMBOLIZED in the elements.
If you recall, this was the crux of my conversation with Fr. Proctor. I basically asked "Can epicletic existence happen WITHOUT the elements?" to which I got the reply "Yes." Meaning we ARE the actual elements. Remember that whole thing that I reposted not too long ago?
At the same time, I DO think that emphasis of the "material" aspect is helpful in that we remember that "we ARE what we EAT"...not in some sacreligious way. (People that are overly concerned about cannabilism are missing the point, just like Jesus' original hearers! For real! ) Christ's real presence and life courses through our bodies in the Eucharist JUST LIKE the bread and wine/juice we eat courses through our bodies. (This goes with the idea of theosis and deification of the FLESH. It all ties together.)
I don't see anything wrong with this.
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 6:22:51 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/21/2010 7:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hmmm...yeah, I see it even MORE clearly now. How many evangelicals do YOU know that believe in "deification of the flesh" unto the kind of "shining" experiences of the Saints (like that of St. Seraphim)...or even of the Holy Spirit's use of RELICS of the Saints for the healing and blessing of others?
None. Zippo. Nada.
Why? Because there is no context to even see those things as any way LINKED to the Eucharist...at all. It can all stay in the mental immaterial realm, having nothing to do with the flesh really.
How could any genuine memorialist believe that anything NEAR deification of the flesh could occur through the Eucharist? They couldn't. Not in a million years.
Yeah...
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 6:29:23 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 1/21/2010 7:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | D: At the same time, I DO think that emphasis of the “material” aspect is helpful…
T: More than helpful. It’s nearly necessary. I mean, we need CONCRETE symbols to aid memory and guide faith toward its proper object.
D: …in that we remember that “we ARE what we EAT”...
T: I agree. Imagine. A symbol you actually take into yourself, eat, and which becomes you. What better symbol of the actual impartation of grace through faith that gets transacted in the event?
D: (People that are overly concerned about cannabilism are missing the point, just like Jesus' original hearers! For real!) Christ's real presence and life courses through our bodies in the Eucharist JUST LIKE the bread and wine/juice we eat courses through our bodies.
T: Well, if you wish to dispel the charge of cannibalism, then you’ll have to disassociate the elements from the life of Christ (and the effects of that life) in our bodies, i.e., from the grace that’s experienced in communion. Otherwise, how IS your view different from cannibalism?
Tom KIXYTΘEMTA | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 1/21/2010 7:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: Well, if you wish to dispel the charge of cannibalism, then you’ll have to disassociate the elements from the life of Christ (and the effects of that life) in our bodies, i.e., from the grace that’s experienced in communion. Otherwise, how IS your view different from cannibalism?
Think about it, dawg. WHY did the people balk at what Jesus said as being a "hard saying"...and walk away...as opposed to Peter and the crew who DID stay?
I think it was because they viewed it MORE IMPORTANT to not be cannibals then to cleave to the one who's words had "eternal life."
It was a heart issue. Same as today.
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When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
26 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
30 So they asked him, "What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "
32 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34 "Sir," they said, "always give us this bread."
35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' [d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which people may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit [e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God."
70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 6:35:47 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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