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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > Question: Should Any Seriously Mentally-Challenged Persons Be Baptized? | Forum Quick Jump
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
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| Posted 1/21/2010 2:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
D: You seem to think that I am saying the following: "It is absolutely necessary that the bread and wine MUST be transmuted into something other than bread and wine by the Holy Spirit in order to mediate any Grace to partaking persons unto the deification of the flesh." I'm really hoping that you will hear this clearly: This is NOT what I am saying.
T: Good. I'm following ya.
D: It is absolutely necessary that the Holy Spirit be consciously invoked so that mediated Grace (via "re-presentation" of and participation in Christ's Body and Blood through partaking the bread and wine) is understood to ONLY occur by the Holy Spirit's working in and through all parts of the eucharistic partaking. All of this works unto the deification of the flesh by the Spirit's working.
T: Tell me exactly what the deification of the FLESH is. It doesn't mean you don't die. It's not the glorification of the body. And it doesn't mean you have to light up like a light bulb 24/7. So what DOES it mean all the time? What's the ABIDING TRUTH and REALITY of "deified flesh"? Just that out bodies are WHERE God's Spirit uniquely moves and brings the Kingdom, i.e., out of our right-relating?
If that's it, then it's just the incorporating of our bodies into an increasingly full and consequential participation of the Kingdom. Our bodies become increasingly fruitful and effecient storehouses of the Kingdom's power, more and more adroit at love's instrumetality. Deified flesh is just the consecration and actual surrender of our bodies to Christ for his purposes. It's about USE and FUNCTION, not a change in structure (we still die and are corrupted even with deified bodies).
But dude, I wouldn't limit this to being an effect of communion. My body is taken up into Christ and made his as a temple as I offer it (through prayer and obedience and belief) as an instrument of righteousness (Paul in Romans and the whole "offer your bodies as instruments of..."). You still seem to be limiting the possibilities of the body's 'becoming' and incorporation into the power of the Kingdom (your 'deification of the flesh'?) TO COMMUNION. I probably wouldn't do that.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 1/21/2010 1:42:06 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/21/2010 2:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
So what DOES it mean all the time? Just that our bodies are WHERE God's Spirit uniquely moves and brings the Kingdom, i.e., out of our right-relating?
That's it?
Close enough. The idea of relics is basically that our bodies can be this nexus even AFTER death.
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Tom:
If that's it, then I wouldn't limit the incorporating of our bodies, in an increasingly full and consequential participation of the Kingdom, to being an effect of communion. My body is taken up into Christ and made his as a temple as I offer it (through prayer and obedience and belief) as an instrument of righteousness (Paul in Romans and the whole "offer your bodies as instruments of..." ) You still seem to be limiting the possibilities of the body's 'becoming' and incorporation into the power of the Kingdom (your 'deification of the flesh'?) TO COMMUNION. I probably wouldn't do that.
I wouldn't limit it just there, either. Remember again what I got from Fr. Proctor on all this. At the same time, I would say that communion CAN be thought of sacramentally in this vein...whereas a true memorialist would never do so.
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 1:45:27 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/21/2010 2:53 PM (GMT -6) | | | "Baptists do not hold Communion, nor the elements thereof, as sacramental; rather, it is considered to be an act of remembrance of Christ's atonement, and a time of renewal of personal commitment."
Greg was last ordained where? In the Baptist General Conference. (WHC is still officially a BGC church)
And that not counting Greg's own personal ANAbaptist theological moorings...
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/21/2010 1:56:49 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 1/21/2010 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg doesn't deny God indwells and impacts our flesh, so what's his deal?
If God's IN something (i.e., fully present to it's reality) then what's "sacramental" even mean? It can't mean that God is located HERE and NOT there. It can't mean that grace isn't imparted to all who contemplate the divine presence/logos in created things. It can only mean that AS A COMMUNITY the CHURCH...TOGETHER...accesses/experiences the grace everywhere present AS THE BODY. And as you know, COMMUNITIES have different requirements and are held/bound together in their corporate identity slightly differently than individuals; i.e., community accomplishments are more demanding (thus the necessity of symbols and rules about their proper place and employment). It's not GOD (nor grace) that requires these symbols or their particular use, nor is it the individual encounter with God necessarily (an individual may be sore to great heights in spite of a church family that sucks); it is instead the demands of COMMUNAL LIFE and IDENTITY that's more complex and demanding. The Lord's Supper was instituted for the maintenance of the community's identity and [i]raison d'etre[/i] (the French adds weight to my argument!).
Just trying.
T
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 1/21/2010 2:09:11 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/21/2010 3:35 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 1/21/2010 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...
POW:
Baptism is scripture's initiation into the Body of Christ. It is not a magic substance. It is a first in a long line of actions that together are a process.
Both credobaptists and paedobaptists would agree with those statement, supposedly. My question deals with the main argument against infant baptism that REQUIRES a certain level of cognitive ability that credobaptists say that infants don't have. If the argument holds for infants, then it must hold for MR persons with infantlike minds, just staying consistent.
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POW: It requires a beginning action, and it requires a fellowship to receive the individual in it's ongoing nurture.
Surely, this is seen in a context of infant baptism, right?
NO, I intentinally wrote to include Both considerations, infant and adult.
Planely this applies to adults too!!!!!!
Together
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 1/22/2010 6:41:57 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/22/2010 1:22 AM (GMT -6) | | D: You (Tom) don't have as much of a problem with epiklesis per se...as you do the connection sometimes made between the epiklesis and some actual transmutation/transformation of the elements FROM one thing TO another. Ain't that right?
T: Right. AND also the idea that even if the bread never becomes anything other than bread, it's still WHERE the grace bestowed is located materially so that the grace is literally eaten.
From a nit-pickey perspective, EVERYTIME we eat, "grace" is literally eaten. The divine energies (and created order from those energies) behind bread and wine are the SAME energies behind the deified flesh of Christ. Right? Christ's flesh is of the same "ashes of dead stars" as everything else on the earth, especially the human flesh of his Mother, Mary.
But I see what your sayin'. The grace is received in the faith-contextual partaking of the material, not simply the material itself.
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/22/2010 12:26:20 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 1/22/2010 1:26 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/22/2010 1:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Oh, and also the idea baptismal regeneration.
You WOULD say that ACTUAL divine grace is mediated to a person being baptized (and "gifted" with the Spirit) in a faithful context...just like with the Eucharist, right? To the infant...or the MR person being baptized. This doesn't mean that one HAS to be baptized in order to be a temple of the Holy Spirit in Christ. (Cornelius pretty much shows us that!) At the same time, we can say that God is ACTUALLY doing something of spiritual significance in that baptism that he is NOT doing in other providential activities. In other words, you WOULD say that baptism IS a "sacrament", right? Even the EOs, hardcore as they can be, end up saying that some measure of divine grace is mediated through so-called heterodox baptisms. (See here)
And you would say that it serves the "challenges of communities" concerns as well, too, I think...
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/22/2010 12:59:38 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 1/22/2010 2:39 AM (GMT -6) | | D: And you would say that it serves the "challenges of communities" concerns as well, too, I think...
T: Oh yeah, definitely.
Think of it relationally and in terms of the commitments we make to relations. We 'dress up' certain commitments (especially community relevant commitments) in ways that signify the meaning and importance of the choice and help us drive a stake into the ground. It gives us something to come back to. An Ebenezer of sorts. The grace is IN THE CHOOSING, the COMMITTING to community. It's doesn't stop and start with baptism. Baptism isn't like a shot in the arm, you get all your gonna get of grace that's contained in the act. It's more like your signature on a contract. It's WHERE and WHEN you publicly committed to a relationship, and those kinds of commits are a continual means of grace...more like an IV. When times get tough for my faith later, I'll come back to this moment. It'll stare me in the face and remind me of who I chose to be, and THAT will infuse grace as I appropriate it by faith. Baptism CONTINUES to be a means of grace in this sense (I think). So there's grace mediated in baptism, yes. Just not the spooky magical kind with incantations. It's common sense relational ontology where we ground our commitments in ways that keep us open to God and in community. Can someone stay open and committed to God who doesn't receive baptism? Well, yeah. But what are OTHERS in the community to think about your commitment to the community (its identity, purpose, mission, etc.) if you refuse baptism? One would have to wonder WHY you'd refuse to sign a contract that defines the terms of a commitment you SAY you've already made and are committed to keep. Dudn't make sense.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 1/22/2010 1:45:10 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 1/22/2010 7:44 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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