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One Love
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   Posted 12/25/2009 2:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmmm...
 

Arthur Green presents in an edifying format, the essentials of Judaism. Here is an excerpt on the spiritual practice of enthusiasm.

"Hitlahavut means 'rapture,' 'enthusiasm,' or 'ecstasy.' It generally refers to a state reached within prayer, though Hasidic masters sometimes report that it can happen outside prayer as well.

"The root XXX/l-h-v means 'flame.' Hitlahavut means that the soul catches fire and is itself turned into flame. In such moments all obstacles to perceiving God everywhere are consumed in an instant; consciousness and the ecstatic flame are one.

"Nowhere in Jewish spiritual literature is hitlahavut proclaimed as the goal of devotional life. It is a rare and precious moment that happens in the life of those who give themselves wholly to prayer. Usually it comes and goes almost in a flash. But no matter: The real impact of hitlahavut is in the memory of such moments. They are stored in the contemplative's mind and become important steps on the road toward the much cooler but longer lasting goal of devekut, an attachment to God in which one may live and act.

"The great masters of Jewish prayer within Hasidism debated the value of ecstasy, and especially of its display in public worship. In circles where religious devotion was taught to be the highest good, it was natural for novices (especially young boys) to 'show off' the intensity of their worship and the 'heights' of loud and passionate prayer they could reach. Many older and more sophisticated worshippers found such behavior annoying and disturbing to the community at prayer. Others, however, felt a distinction should be made between such childish excesses and true expressions of hitlahavut, which should always be welcomed in the community and never be deemed a cause of embarrassment."

What catches the soul on fire?   I'm betting it's the Holy Spirit.  Too many biblical association of the Spirit with "fire" for it NOT to be that.
 
So...
 
Why does this remind me of the thorny issues within Pentecostal/Charismatic settings...as in the Revivalist themes before them?  Having concern about spiritual excess in worship?  Attempting to spiritually discern immaturity from genuine expression of divine rapture?
 
Want proof?  Here.
 
Moral of the story: NEVER throw the baby with the bath water.  Ever.  If your soul starts burning when you think about Jesus, and tears start streaming down your face without shame...and you feel like dancing before the Lord...hey...just remember King David...and getta moving!! 

hop 


I. D. G. A. F. 

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/25/2009 1:51:38 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/25/2009 2:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Eastern Orthodox don't hate on this...do they?

nono 


I. D. G. A. F. 

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/25/2009 2:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm...this helps a bit...
 
----------------------------------------------------- 

Eastern Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism

<script type=text/javascript src="http://s.wordpress.com/wp-content/plugins/adverts/adsense.js?1"></script>

The famous Gerald R. McDermott, known for his recent dialogue with LDS, writes in The Baker Pocket Guide to World Religions:  What Every Christian Needs to Know  (Baker Books, 2008 ):

Eastern Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism

Until recently Christianity has been said to be divided into three main groups–Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.  But in the last two decades, with the explosive rise of Pentecostal Christianity in China and the Global South, Pentecostalism is becoming a fourth main branch of the worldwide church.

The Eastern Orthodox comprise 220 million believers in Russia, Serbia, Greece, Poland, Georgia, and other areas of Eastern Europe, under “patriarchs” of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.  They reject the authority of the Pope at Rome, look to the seven “ecumenical” councils (from AD 375 to 787) and Greek church fathers for teaching, reject the Roman filioque in the Nicene Creed (the Spirit proceeded “also from the Son,” as well as from the Father), have married priests but only celibate bishops, and revere icons.  Icons are paintings of Christ, his apostles, and the saints that are painted by artisans trained both spiritually and artistically, and are regarded by Orthodox as “windows into the divine.”

Pentecostalism represents the fastest growing religious group in the world at six hundred million believers.  It is the largest variety of Christianity in China and may comprise the world’s largest national church (eighty to one hundred million).  It is so named because of its use of the “Pentecostal gifts” described in I Corinthians 12-14 and the book of Acts:  tongues, prophecy, discerning of spirits, healing, and others (95).

Tell me what you think about this brief summary, Greg.

And let me tell you what I think about this:

Evangelicals versus Fundamentalists

. . . While both groups preach salvation by grace,  fundamentalists tend to focus so much on rules and restrictions (dos and don’ts) that their hearers can get the impression that Christianity means following behavioral rules.  Evangelicals, on the other hand, focus on the person and work of Christ and personal relationship with him, as the heart of Christian faith (102).

I think that closing summary statement is sloppy broad brushing.  Let me put forward a sincere, earnest question to Gerald:  “Which American evangelicals and which fundamentalists are you listening to in 2009 to make this generalization?”

-----------------------------------------------------

Father Greg's Response

As far as the Byzantine Orthodox (Greeks, Russians, Serbs, Antiochians, etc.) go, this is fair enough as far as it goes. There are also the “Oriental Orthodox” (Armenians, Syrians, Copts, Ethiopians, Indians) who accept only three Councils as being fully Ecumenical (universal: binding on the whole Church), those of Nicea (AD 325), Constantinople (AD 381), and Ephesus (AD 431). The OO reject Chalcedon (451) outright, but are not “monophysite”, believing and teaching that Christ is indeed both truly and fully human and truly and fully God, united in one Divine Person “without change, without confusion, without separation, without division”: the disagreement has to do with the fact that Chalcedon defines the humanity and the deity of Christ in terms of “nature” (“physis”) instead of “essence” (“ousia”) and because of the definite nestorianizing of the Tome of Leo, the acceptance of which at Chalcedon also went a long way toward launching the Roman Church on the trajectory that led to the decrees of the RC First Vatican Council, which defined papal infallibility and the alleged ordinary universal jurisdiction of the papacy. The OO also venerate ikons and therefore embrace the teaching of the last of the seven councils, Nicea II (787), in this regard, without holding it to be fully ecumenical. The decrees of the Second Council of Constantinople (553) are seen as positive, in moving away from Chalcedon in re-affirming the singleness of Christ’s (Divine) Person; however, this synod too is not held by the OO to be fully ecumenical. It is this latter Oriental Orthodox tradition out of which my Church comes: unlike the mainstream Orthodox Churches of either type, we do allow married bishops, and, in general, we do not think that the “errors” of either the Byzantines or the Romans sink to the level of outright heresy.

One other thing needs to be mentioned: for either branch of Orthodoxy, the primary vocation of the Church is worship; hence, the community is understood to be most fully realized as Church, the Body of Christ, when it is assembled in the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharist.

Wow! The summary concerning Pentecostalism is painted with a pretty broad brush too. No mention of Trinitarians vs. non-trinitarians, or of the so-called “prosperity gospel”. No mention of the “latter rain” folks. Also no mention of charismatic renewal within mainstream Western churches.

Also, regarding Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism: here is what Greek Bishop Kallistos Ware writes in “The Orthodox Church”:

“But the Church is not only hierarchical, it is charismatic and Pentecostal. “Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings” (1 Thes. 5:19-20). The Holy Spirit is poured out upon all God’s people. There is a special ordained ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons; yet at the same time the whole people of God are prophets and priests. In the Apostolic Church, besides the institutional ministry conferred by the laying on of hands, there were other charismata or gifts conferred directly by the Spirit: Paul mentions ‘gifts of healing,’ the working of miracles, “speaking with tongues,” and the like (1 Cor. 12:28-30). In the Church of later days, these charismatic ministries have been less in evidence, but they have never been wholly extinguished. One thinks, for example, of the ministry of ‘eldership,’ so prominent in nineteenth-century Russia; this is not imparted by a special act of ordination, but can be exercised by the layman as well as by priest or bishop. Seraphim of Sarov and the startsi [“elders”] of Optino exercised an influence far greater than any hierarch.

“This ‘spiritual,’ non-institutional aspect of the Church’s life has been particularly emphasized by certain recent theologians in the Russian emigration; but it is also stressed by Byzantine writers, most notably Symeon the New Theologian.”

 

Oh, yeah...biggrin


I. D. G. A. F. 

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/25/2009 1:39:01 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/25/2009 2:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm...

Wesley (including the Quadrilateral)
Evangelicalism
Pentecostalism
Importance of Self-Denial
Process
Eastern Orthodoxy
Freedom of Ecstatic Worship
Centrality on Christ
Eucharist
Baptism
Hesychasm (The Beauty of Silence before God)
SK's Works of Love (especially the two dimensions of Praising Love)
Epiklesis
Theoria
Robust Trinitarianism
Epektasis
Powers of the Soul for Experiencing God (Judaism)
Divine Rest
Devekut (Judaism's way of "Cleaving to God" )

The wheels in my head are turning...idea


I. D. G. A. F. 

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/25/2009 2:05:17 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/25/2009 12:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Martin Buber
The Legend of the Baal-Shem
"The Life of the Hasidim"
Section: Hitlahavut:Ecstasy
Beginning at page 17.

The WHOLE SECTION (what's there at least) is worth checking out.
 
And interestingly enough, there can be NO "ecstasy" in God WITHOUT "humility" (shiflut) before God!
 
Only those that humble themselves before God will be exalted by God.  Sound familiar, right?

"I wish somebody's soul would..."


I. D. G. A. F. 

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/25/2009 11:49:58 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 12/25/2009 12:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, Tom. You'd better at LEAST read pages 18-19! That has EPEKTASIS written all friggin OVER it!!!!!!!!


I. D. G. A. F. 

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

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One Love
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   Posted 12/25/2009 1:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From Pages 18-19...

...Hitlahavut is not a sudden sinking into eternity: it is an ascent to the infinite from rung to rung. To find God means to find the way without end. The Hasidim saw the "world to come" in the image of this way, and they never called that world a Beyond. One of the pious saw a dead master in a dream. The latter told him that from the hour of his death he went each day from world to world. And the world which yesterday was stretched out above his gaze as heaven is to-day the earth under his foot; and the heaven of to-day is the earth of to-morrow. And each world is purer and more beautiful and more profound than the one before.

The angels rest in God, but the holy spirits go forward in God. "The angel is one who stands, and the holy man is one who travels on. Therefore the holy man is higher than the angel."

Such is the way of ecstasy.
If it appears to offer an end, an arriving, an attaining, an acquiring, it is only a final no, not a final yes: it is the end of constraint, the shaking off of the last chains, the liberation which is lifted above everything earthly. "When a man moves from strength to strength and ever upward and upward until he comes to the root of all teaching and all command, to the I of God, the simple unity and boundlessness--when he stands there, then all the wings of command and law sink down and are as if destroyed. For the evil impulse is destroyed since he stands above it."

Dude...couldn't Gregory of Nyssa have written this WORD FOR WORD, dang near????

 

shocked


I. D. G. A. F. 

Christ is All.

"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble."

Post Edited (One Love) : 12/25/2009 12:18:27 PM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 1/23/2010 4:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Experience of Prayer
By fatherstephen

Nepsis.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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Tom
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   Posted 1/24/2010 2:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
However supportive Ware's comments re: Pentecostalism and the gifts are, in the Middle East at least Pentecostalism is pretty soundly rejected. The Catholics on the other hand have embraced it and are blessed. They remain Catholic, but their priests and leadership have OK'd meetings, gifts, modern worship instruments, lay-leadership (speaking and teaching) and the whole 9 yards. The Orthodox have dug in and rejected all this. Years ago there was a move of God among the Assyrian Orthodox, some of whom welcomed Pentecostal gifts, etc. But by in the large the Orthodox in the Middle East have been a stone wall when it comes to experiencing/allowing the experience of all this stuff.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

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One Love
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   Posted 1/24/2010 4:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
The Orthodox have dug in and rejected all this. Years ago there was a move of God among the Assyrian Orthodox, some of whom welcomed Pentecostal gifts, etc. But by in the large the Orthodox in the Middle East have been a stone wall when it comes to experiencing/allowing the experience of all this stuff.

Imagine integrating Orthodox truth with openness to Pentecostal/Charismatic insights, including believing in the current existence of Spirit gift use. (You and I ain't cessationists.) I think we can do it, man. (If the Lord willed and empowered, of course! ) Whachu think? ;-)

PS: I believe that God had a reason for me to go to Oral Roberts University rather than Dallas Theological Seminary, like I kinda wanted.  It allowed me a openness to the Holy Spirit's comtemporaneous activity (in gifts of the Spirit, healing, exorcism, etc.) rather than a cessationist Oh-that-was-only-for-back-in-the-day type of thinking about Holy Spirit Activity.  This was a significant jump from my Southern Baptist cessationist two-storey view of the world, ya know.  And you, Tom.  You're just as Pentecostal as you wanna be, ya dang missionary, you!  lol


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 3:30:11 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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   Posted 1/24/2010 4:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thought:

Imagine full use of the Spirit "gifts" where "sobriety" (nepsis) fulfulls everything with Holy Spirit fruit of "self-control"

All the power for service described in 1 Corinthians, without all the double-mindness and immaturity.

Azusa Street meets Maximus (Hesychia, Apatheia, etc).

Interesting thought, huh?


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 3:36:26 AM (GMT-6)

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