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One Love
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| Posted 1/24/2010 7:34 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/24/2010 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg:
The disagreement begins when one presses the question of the meaning and significance of communion. In particular, people hold differing perspectives on what Jesus meant when he said, "This is my body...This is my blood." In other words, is Christ actually "present" in the Lord's Supper, and if so, how? This debate is connected to a wider debate on the nature of Christian religious rituals in general. Are practices such as baptism and the Lord's Supper sacramental in nature, or are they more accurately understood as ordinances? The difference is important. According to the sacramental view, these practices are gifts of God to is church by which he bestows grace and blessing. Those who understand these events as ordinances view them as practices that were obtained by Christ, by which the church demonstrates its loving obedience to God.
You (Tom) and I are on the "sacrament" side, right? Just making sure we're STILL on the same page. 
Greg's glossary terms in Across the Spectrum:
Sacrament: Traditionally understood as a means of grace. Something is sacramental when it is said to "bear the divine." Some evangelicals see the Lord's Supper and baptism as sacraments in that God uses them as a means of dispensing grace to those who participate in them.
Ordinance: A command. Some see the Lord's Supper and baptism as ordinances, as opposed to sacraments, believing that their meaning lies in the simple fact that the people who engage in them are obeying God.
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Baptism and Communion – Baptism and communion are two ordinances the Lord has given the Church. The only form of baptism we practice is believer’s baptism by immersion. (Baptism: Acts 2:38-41; Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 8:26-40; 10:47; 18:8; Romans 6:3-4. Communion: Acts 2:42-46; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29)
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 7:28:23 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/24/2010 8:55 PM (GMT -6) | | | Evangelically speaking, "sacramental memorialism" (your stated position, Tom) is an oxymoron. Like I said on the other thread...
You are better off dropping the "memorialism" from your "sacramental memorialism", advocating a type of Methodistic perspective (which denies any transubstantiation)...and call it a day. You don't define "memorialism" the way that most evangelicals do.
You are at LEAST a "spiritual presence" kinda person...ala Wesley
"Wesley, as I understand his view, was a combination of memorialism and real grace mediating in the EVENT of faith appropriating history (i.e., remembering Christ). Not sure about him, but this is pretty much my view—a kind of sacramental memorialism. When faith approaches the history of the Cross held out in community’s symbols of that event, grace is mediated. Nothing ‘happens’ to the bread or wine at any time. But WE declare ourselves to be the BODY of Christ upon earth when by faith the power and grace of the life and death of Jesus becomes the power by which we live and are the Church."
wiki...
The followers of John Wesley, himself an Anglican clergyman, have typically affirmed that the sacrament of Holy Communion is an instrumental Means of Grace through which the real presence of Christ is communicated to the believer, but have otherwise allowed the details to remain a mystery.
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 8:11:09 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/24/2010 10:40 PM (GMT -6) | | So....reposting...
4) Are Baptism and the Eucharist to be seen as "sacraments", not merely "ordinances? Yep, given the qualifying convo.
Sacrament: Traditionally understood as a means of grace. Something is sacramental when it is said to "bear the divine." Some evangelicals see the Lord's Supper and baptism as sacraments in that God uses them as a means of dispensing grace to those who participate in them.
Ordinance: A command. Some see the Lord's Supper and baptism as ordinances, as opposed to sacraments, believing that their meaning lies in the simple fact that the people who engage in them are obeying God.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/24/2010 11:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Even the "Posing the Question" story in Chapter 13 is telling. I'm gonna flip some things. In the original story, "Jordan" went to "First Baptist Church" and "Grace" was a Catholic. I'm keeping the tone, but switching some things for effect...you'll see...
Jordan was overjoyed when he noticed the Bible that the new employee Grace, had placed on her desk in the cubicle next to his. For months, he had thought he was the only Christian working in the office. Soon, Jordan and Grace were eating lunch together and sharing their spiritual journeys with one another. In time, Jordan invited Grace to visit his church, Woodland Hills Church. The upcoming Sunday happened to be a Communion Service Sunday--the one Sunday every couple of months when they celebrated the Lord's Supper together.
As Jordan passed a tray containing tiny plastic cups of grape juice to Grace, he couldn't help noticing the look of puzzlement on her face. Later that afternoon, as they were eating lunch, Grace began to talk about the communion experience. She explained that she came from an Orthodox background and that the service was a little strange for her. Her confusion was expressed in a string of questions: Why did Jordan's church celebrate something as important as communion only once every couple of months? Why did they use grape juice and not wine? Why didn't the people go to the front of the church to receive the Eucharist from the pastor? And finally, why wasn't there more emphasis on the fact that the communion elements were the real body and blood of Christ? Indeed, to Jordan's surprise, Grace told him that she found the entire service offensively casual.
Jordan didn't know what to say. "We're just remembering what Jesus did for us, " he finally muttered. "What's the big deal?"
"The big deal?" Grace retorted. "You're taking the body and blood of the Savior! That's the big deal!"
"What's the big deal?" indeed...
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
...
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
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Who is being more diligent, biblically speaking, about eating and drinking the Lord's Supper "worthily": Jordan or Grace?
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 10:35:17 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/24/2010 11:48 PM (GMT -6) | | | Interesting...
Posted on 07 February 2009
There is nothing old or stale about the memorial feast, the fruit of the vine is not old, the shed blood is not aged, the bread is not stale, the Lord’s body is not a mere thing of the past, the way is new and living. The thing most striking about the character of the feast is its presentness and not its pastness or its futureness… The feast points back and is a memorial of the death of our Lord, and it points forward to his return, but there is also a distinct present aspect.
This, believe it or not, is a Pentecostal statement, given by the first general council of the Assemblies of God (1916). In his groundbreaking work, Hollenweger insisted that although Pentecostals did not have a fully-developed theology of the Eucharist, they demonstrated Eucharistic devotion nonetheless. This devotion took on one or more of the following three dimensions:
- love of Jesus
- “blood-and-wounds mysticism”
- eagerness for Jesus’ return
Hollenweger held that Pentecostals expect to be transformed by their participation in this meal, spiritually strengthened and physically healed. He could even go so far as to refer to the Eucharist as the “center” of Pentecostal worship.
For whatever reason, my experience of Pentecostal worship differs widely from his. Perhaps we Pentecostals have lost touch with this reality? Or perhaps only the Pentecostals I know are markedly different from the ones Hollenweger studied. Regardless, I think these insights provide us with hope – hope that we too, as Pentecostals, can (re)turn to the Eucharist as the center and ground of our Spirit-inspired worship.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm tellin' ya, Tom. I'm thinking John Wesley (including his take on the Eucharist) is the key for linking insights from Pentecostalism, Evangelicalism, and Eastern Orthodoxy into a workable sacramental view within "the mainstream of the Protestant Reformation."
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 11:32:15 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/25/2010 12:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | Whole thread.
“But the Church is not only hierarchical, it is charismatic and Pentecostal. “Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings” (1 Thes. 5:19-20). The Holy Spirit is poured out upon all God’s people. There is a special ordained ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons; yet at the same time the whole people of God are prophets and priests. In the Apostolic Church, besides the institutional ministry conferred by the laying on of hands, there were other charismata or gifts conferred directly by the Spirit: Paul mentions ‘gifts of healing,’ the working of miracles, “speaking with tongues,” and the like (1 Cor. 12:28-30). In the Church of later days, these charismatic ministries have been less in evidence, but they have never been wholly extinguished. One thinks, for example, of the ministry of ‘eldership,’ so prominent in nineteenth-century Russia; this is not imparted by a special act of ordination, but can be exercised by the layman as well as by priest or bishop. Seraphim of Sarov and the startsi [“elders”] of Optino exercised an influence far greater than any hierarch."
Kallistos Ware "The Orthodox Church"
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 11:34:13 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/25/2010 12:39 AM (GMT -6) | | | Reposting...
____________________________________
Tom:
However supportive Ware's comments re: Pentecostalism and the gifts are, in the Middle East at least Pentecostalism is pretty soundly rejected. The Catholics on the other hand have embraced it and are blessed. They remain Catholic, but their priests and leadership have OK'd meetings, gifts, modern worship instruments, lay-leadership (speaking and teaching) and the whole 9 yards. The Orthodox have dug in and rejected all this. Years ago there was a move of God among the Assyrian Orthodox, some of whom welcomed Pentecostal gifts, etc. But by in the large the Orthodox in the Middle East have been a stone wall when it comes to experiencing/allowing the experience of all this stuff.
Imagine integrating Orthodox truth with openness to Pentecostal/Charismatic insights, including believing in the current existence of Spirit gift use. (You and I ain't cessationists.) I think we can do it, man. (If the Lord willed and empowered, of course! ) Whachu think?
...
Thought: Imagine full use of the Spirit "gifts" where "sobriety" (nepsis) fulfulls everything with Holy Spirit fruit of "self-control" All the power for service described in 1 Corinthians, without all the double-mindness and spiritual immaturity. Azusa Street meets Maximus (Hesychia, Apatheia, etc). Interesting thought, huh?
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One Love
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| Posted 1/25/2010 1:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Pentecostal liturgy?
By J.C. Holsinger
Assemblies of God website --------------------------------------- When the Assemblies of God was formed, the founders deliberately avoided using the words sacrament and liturgy. In fact, the founders carefully called the ceremonies of the church ordinances to avoid any sacramental connection. Hence rather than sacramentalism which the word liturgy historically brings with it, Pentecostals more accurately have ordinances and ceremonies. However, these ceremonies are important in educating and binding the generations of Christians together. Therefore, continuity and carefulness in performing these ceremonies should be practiced.
I think they "lost touch", dawg...
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/25/2010 12:09:05 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 1/25/2010 1:26 AM (GMT -6) | | | I know, right?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday, September 23, 2006
Farewell to the Assemblies of God
On the eve of one of the most important decisions of my life, I have decided to share the letter that was just sent to the Assemblies of God, so that you can have a glimpse into my life.
***********************
Rev. Otis D. Stanley, Southern New England District Superintendent
Rev. Leslie E. Welk, Northwest District Superintendent
Dear Superintendents,
It is with a unique combination of deep sorrow and much excitement that I must share the following. On September 24, 2006, the Rt. Rev. M. Thomas Shaw of the Diocese of Massachusetts will administer the sacrament of confirmation, thus receiving me in the Episcopal Church, and on a broader level welcome me to the Anglican Communion. With this sacramental act, I am effectively surrendering my License to Preach with the Assemblies of God. Further, after completing my Masters of Art in Church History at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, I will be seeking Holy Orders through the Anglican Communion Network.
Borrowing from liturgical terminology, my decision to seek Holy Orders with the Anglican Communion has not been made unadvisedly or lightly, but reverently, deliberately, and in accordance with Holy Scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit. However, the purpose of this letter is not to offer a full apology of my decision, but to share my gratefulness to the Assemblies of God for its role in my conversion, spiritual growth, education, and ministry, as well as provide a glimpse of my pilgrimage to Anglicanism.
In leaving the Assemblies of God, I desire to clearly articulate my deep gratitude. I have been incredibly blessed with great churches, exceptional pastors, and a phenomenal undergraduate education at Northwest College. Particularly noteworthy events also include A/G short-term missions trips, camps and district youth conferences, and the Fine Arts Festival, in which I was twice invited to Nationals in the short sermon category. The strength of my faith is certainly and deeply indebted to the Assemblies of God. Therefore, in making my decision to leave the A/G, I do not perceive this result in any way as a failure of the fellowship, and I especially do not want you to think that you have failed me in some fashion.
I believe it is also necessary to also share a few thoughts about Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. It would be a drastic mistake to associate the education I received at GCTS with my leaving the Assemblies. In fact, the seminary has been incredibly sympathetic and supportive of Pentecostalism. I have been continually impressed with the professors and administrators who were either personally charismatic, or at least very supportive of my tradition. As the Assemblies continues to flourish and contribute more and more to the Body of Christ, and specifically in academia, I remain an ardent supporter of Gordon-Conwell as a strong evangelical seminary which can help further equip young Assemblies of God ministers. I should also add that my experience at Northwest College, where I received my BA in Pastoral Ministries, also contributed to my appreciation and commitment to the Assemblies of God.
Why, then the decision to leave? Over the last several years of personal study and pursuing the Lord on a pilgrimage that I did not anticipate, I have become convinced of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the centrality of the Eucharist in Christian worship. With that, I have also come to a more sacramental understanding of how I believe God has interacted with his church over the centuries, and desire to enter more fully into sacramental worship and ministry. Finally, I believe that the Lord has ordained Apostolic Succession, at least, for the fullness (plene esse) of the Church (BCP, p. 510). It is under this episcopal structure that I believe the Lord has called me to serve his church. There are certainly other factors that have also contributed to my decision to follow the Lord into the Anglican Communion, but these three particulars serve as the essentials that preclude me from continued ministry within the Assemblies of God fellowship.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/25/2010 1:29 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/25/2010 1:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Reposting...
---------------------------------------------------------
Greg:
The disagreement begins when one presses the question of the meaning and significance of communion. In particular, people hold differing perspectives on what Jesus meant when he said, "This is my body...This is my blood." In other words, is Christ actually "present" in the Lord's Supper, and if so, how? This debate is connected to a wider debate on the nature of Christian religious rituals in general. Are practices such as baptism and the Lord's Supper sacramental in nature, or are they more accurately understood as ordinances? The difference is important. According to the sacramental view, these practices are gifts of God to is church by which he bestows grace and blessing. Those who understand these events as ordinances view them as practices that were obtained by Christ, by which the church demonstrates its loving obedience to God.
You (Tom) and I are on the "sacrament" side, right? Just making sure we're STILL on the same page.
Greg's chosen glossary terms in Across the Spectrum:
Sacrament: Traditionally understood as a means of grace. Something is sacramental when it is said to "bear the divine." Some evangelicals see the Lord's Supper and baptism as sacraments in that God uses them as a means of dispensing grace to those who participate in them.
Ordinance: A command. Some see the Lord's Supper and baptism as ordinances, as opposed to sacraments, believing that their meaning lies in the simple fact that the people who engage in them are obeying God.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/25/2010 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/25/2010 2:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
When memorialists object to the sacramental believe that grace is mediated materially IN THE ELEMENTS, I agree with them. But I disagree with them if they're also claiming that NO grace is mediated IN THE EVENT of celebrating the Table (or baptism). So I'm caught in between.
Having a sacramental view doesn't necessarily place the grace mediation in the elements themselves. The Reformed "Spiritual Presence" view doesn't do that, while definitely being sacramental in nature. A sacramental view INCLUDES theurgical mediation of grace, whereas memorialistic view does NOT allow for theurgical mediation of grace.
In short, you are SQUARELY in the "sacramental" camp, evangelically speaking. 
And you ain't screwed. Well, maybe your future opportunities in the AoG is pretty slim...but...
Post Edited (One Love) : 1/25/2010 1:32:59 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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