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Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:31 AM (GMT -6)

Greg: According to the sacramental view, these practices are gifts of God to is church by which he bestows grace and blessing.

Tom: But of course God bestows grace and blessing upon us when we celebrate Communion and Baptism. Dang. How can one deny that?

What Greg should have said is that there's a diversity of sacramental views (EO, RC, Luteran, Wesleyan). It's not just ONE thing. SOME versions are objectionable (material sacramentalism for example, which locates grace and its mediation materially IN THE ELEMENTS). But if we locate the mediation of grace in the WHOLE ACT of celebration and remembering, the perceiving by faith of the Cross's abiding power and significance, then how in the world can THIS not mediate grace?

Crazy.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:34 AM (GMT -6)

I told you. Greg doesn't think of Grace in EO terms. He only thinks of it in the basic "undeserved favor" category...which AIN'T helpful to do.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:34 AM (GMT -6)

Whole thread.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:37 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
What Greg should have said is that there's a diversity of sacramental views (EO, RC, Luteran, Wesleyan). It's not just ONE thing. SOME versions are objectionable (material sacramentalism for example, which locates grace and its mediation materially IN THE ELEMENTS). But if we locate the mediation of grace in the WHOLE ACT of celebration and remembering, the perceiving by faith of the Cross's abiding power and significance, then how in the world can THIS not mediate grace?

He gets at the main grab of the sacramental views though. He doesn't limit them all to MATERIAL sacramentalism. As a matter of fact, he does the opposite in talking about the Reformed view of "Spiritual Presence" and contrasting THAT perspective with the "Memorialism View"...

The Lord's Supper is an ordinance that Christ established to provide the church with a reminder of the love and grace he expressed on the cross at Calvary. Communion symbolizes and commemorates Christ's death and functions as a sign of the new covenant believers have with Christ. As such, it is an external reminder of Christ's act of redemption. Christ is of course present whenever believers celebrate the Lord's Supper but not in any sense different from the way he is present whenever believers are gathered in Jesus' name (Matt. 18:20). According to the memorial view, both the Catholic understanding that the communion elements become the body and blood of Christ and the mainline Protestant view that Christ is spiritually present in a unique way [OL's Note: Including Reformed and Methodism] in the communion elements are unnecessary and unbiblical.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/25/2010 1:40:15 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:44 AM (GMT -6)

It's like this: A true memorialist like Greg would not want to say that spiritual strength and physical healing could be conveyed to a believer by partaking in Communion, being a "means of Grace". They would say that's too much like sacramentalism-unto-magic.

A sacramential view holder COULD say something like that, from a theurgic perspective.

Say it with me, Tom:

"I am not a memorialist."

It's easy. icon_brows2

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/25/2010 1:49:17 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:48 AM (GMT -6)

D: I told you. Greg doesn't think of Grace in EO terms. He only thinks of it in the basic "undeserved favor" category...which AIN'T helpful to do.

T: But you know what's weird is that Greg basis his whole PhD objection to Process on the argument that Process cannot see creation AS GRACE!

Ha. Looney!

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:50 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
But you know what's weird is that Greg basis his whole PhD objection to Process on the argument that Process cannot see creation AS GRACE!

And by that, he just means the Process can't see Creation as UNNECESSARY GOODNESS of God.

That's pretty much just the "undeserved favor" thing in another aspect.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:52 AM (GMT -6)

See why I know I can't work at WHC no more, at least in pastoral capacity? Yeah...

Greg and I are on two totally different pages on very important matters.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:52 AM (GMT -6)

Greg: Christ is of course present whenever believers celebrate the Lord's Supper but not in any sense different from the way he is present whenever believers are gathered in Jesus' name (Matt. 18:20).

Tom: On one level he's right. Christ is present everywhere equally. Obviously God heals us and grants us grace in contexts OTHER than Communion. Here's the problem. Greg's forgetting the COMMUNAL aspect of communion and thinking TOO individualistically. Communion is unique in that in this way (and no other) the Church gathers AS A BODY to affirm its identity and ground it in the contemplation of the saving events of Christ's death and resurrection. The grace mediated is the SAME grace, yes. The presence the same presence here as anywhere else. But the CHURCH as a BODY cannot just anywhere and in any way it likes symbolize and contemplate its corporate identity grounded in the Cross. WE (not I) can ONLY do that in Communion. But what this effects in us AS A COMMUNITY is unique because it relates specifically to our identity as the people of God grounded in these events.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 1/25/2010 1:55:50 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:54 AM (GMT -6)

Quoting you...

"Is that power any different than the power that sustains the universe outside the elements of communion? No. Greg’s right to a point, but his point is beside the point. Though the ‘presence’ of God is one and same universally—whether sustaining the existence of Satan or the elements of communion—but God is doing something in one he’s not doing in the other, something special in/for the whole Body when that Body decides (via the table) to live NOW in the light and power of what happened THEN. "

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:56 AM (GMT -6)

Right.

I added: The presence the same presence here as anywhere else. But the CHURCH as a BODY cannot just anywhere and in any way it likes symbolize and contemplate its corporate identity grounded in the Cross. WE (not I) can ONLY do that in Communion.

Ha.

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:57 AM (GMT -6)

It's so interesting when you DON'T agree with your "twin" brother, Gregorius Boydicus.

HA! lol

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 2:59 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
The presence the same presence here as anywhere else. But the CHURCH as a BODY cannot just anywhere and in any way it likes symbolize and contemplate its corporate identity grounded in the Cross. WE (not I) can ONLY do that in Communion.

Which is why any church body having Communion only one time in almost 3 months is ecclesiologically problematic...AT BEST.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:01 AM (GMT -6)

I can't imagine him objecting to what we're saying...i.e., that there's a uniqueness to the CHURCH'S celebration and affirmation of its identity IN THE ACT of Communion that's not present in any other act it does, and that this ACT (because it's a corporate perceiving and grounding of its identity in the saving acts of the Cross and Resurrection) mediates grace TO THE CHURCH to BE the Church more effectively and genuinely.

He CANNOT object to this. Dayyim.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:01 AM (GMT -6)

"I am not a memorialist."

Teehee... yeah

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:02 AM (GMT -6)

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:03 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
He CANNOT object to this. Dayyim.

I'm looking at the book myself. I've worked CLOSELY with him on this issue in the past.

Yes, he CAN object to this!

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:03 AM (GMT -6)

I'm not a memorialist's memorialist, I'm a sacramentalist's memorialist. Ha.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:04 AM (GMT -6)

D: Yes, he CAN object to this!

T: My idol is crumbling before my eyes. Boo hoo hoo.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:05 AM (GMT -6)

D: Which is why any church body having Communion only one time in almost 3 months is ecclesiologically problematic...AT BEST.

T: I think so. It's like only preaching once every three months. How thoroghly and completely are you celebrating and affirming your identity if you only do so every 3 months!?

Exactamundo.

Note to self: Communion must be done as often as logistically possible for services. If not every week, every OTHER week. In 1997, the church I got rededicated in did Communion every week. I liked that.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:07 AM (GMT -6)

But you understand why I don't think the probability wave collapses IN the elements (and why the elements don't become the literally body of Christ), right? If the wave collapses you get all of Jesus, 6', hair/eyes, conscious, talking...incarnate. All of him. No collapsing of the wave (for me at least). But I think for you yes. That's why you're a sacramentalist in a way I'm not.

hehe.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:09 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
That's why you're a sacramentalist in a way I'm not.

That distinction you are trying to make there doesn't get you any ground with respect to the AoG...now does it? Nor would it with the Baptist General Conference, either.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:10 AM (GMT -6)

Maybe not. But still it's a big difference between you and me. Hmmm.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:11 AM (GMT -6)

And think about this. If a church believes that healing power can REALLY be mediated through the healthy participation in Communion...why WOULDN'T a church offer this as MUCH AS POSSIBLE??

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/25/2010 3:12 AM (GMT -6)

Don't forget, Paul clearly links the Corinthians' poor health (and even the death of some) to the selfish way they were conducting themselves at the Table.

Hehe.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

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