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One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 4:51 AM (GMT -6)

Tom,

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/12/22/the-fathers-on-christmas-and-the-eucharist/

OL: At the same time, I DO think that emphasis of the "material" aspect is helpful in that we remember that "we ARE what we EAT"...not in some sacreligious way. (People that are overly concerned about cannabilism are missing the point, just like Jesus' original hearers! For real! ) Christ's real presence and life courses through our bodies in the Eucharist JUST LIKE the bread and wine/juice we eat courses through our bodies. (This goes with the idea of theosis and deification of the FLESH. It all ties together.)

I don't see anything wrong with this.

Tom: T: I agree. Imagine. A symbol you actually take into yourself, eat, and which becomes you. What better symbol of the actual impartation of grace through faith that gets transacted in the event?

Ok, dawg. Let's try to get to the CENTER of what's being articulated. What's really being desired here but the closest possible communion with Christ possible and/or conceivable. And you see the power of the symbol, right? Well, what if God actually "works" in a unifying way between Christ and the Christian, such that Christ's "real presence" interpenetrates every aspect of our human nature, Spiritual, mental, and physical. You've got spiritual union with Christ (being one with the Lord in (S)pirit), and putting on the "mind of Christ", so the Eucharist acts upon the physical. Kinda makes sense once you think about it. That's why it's so important in the Christian faith to believe that the Word of God came IN THE FLESH. The Eternal Word gave himself as the Bread of Life and Blood of God (the life is in the blood, right?) that we were to consume for our continual life.

Think of it as eating continually from the True Tree of Life.

Hmmm...

PS: It's also significant that Jesus in his resurrected, glorified being...ate some fish with his peeps before his final Ascension. Yep.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 4:02:33 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 4:54 AM (GMT -6)

But...and this is the important part...

I don't necessarily believe that one has to believe in actual transmutation of bread/wine into flesh/blood to appropriate equivalent "Grace" from God in the symbolic act of "taking Christ into oneself" for the sake of "eternal life"

We really ARE meant to be "living Eucharists."

The whole thing could be more theurgical. "Sacramental memorialism", I think you called it. See here.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 4:38:11 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:07 AM (GMT -6)

But guess what? Many would say (EOs, RCs, and certain Protestants) that this grace is impossible to experience in the Eucharist WITHOUT "epicletic intent", that is, consciously "invoking" the Holy Spirit as the means and measure of the Grace of Christ to be received by the Christian.

In other words, doing the Eucharist without truly "looking for" divine grace of God through "taking in" Christ to come through the act...is to simply make it PRIMARILY a memorial remembering of Jesus' person and work with an implicit opportunity to rededication to His Spiritual (Omni)Presence. Not a bad thing at all...but definitely not seeing divination of the flesh via participating in "taking in" Christ's mediated presence.

Hence my statement: True memorialists have no context at all to connect deification of the body (by Christ's energies) to the Eucharist. Why? Because they don't believe that ANY sanctifying or deifying "grace" happens at the Lord's Supper. No type of spiritualization of the believer's human physicality AT ALL is seen.

See that, Tom?

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:40 AM (GMT -6)

I'm still waiting for you to zero in and define for me what deification of the flesh means, what it entails, what this "spiritualization of the body" actually entails. It doesn't mean we don't get sick. It doesn't mean we don't die. It's not an escape from corruption.

What DOES it mean?

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:45 AM (GMT -6)

In the end...it's all "Big-Bang-stuff" grounded in uncreated energies. Bread, wine, flesh, blood...all of the same essential characteristics and uncreated grounding.

Why would "transmutation of elements" be needed to appropriate Grace from and participate in from Christ's sanctification of Creation via his Incarnation...if, at base, it's all the same stuff, really...just in different configurations?

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:47 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
I'm still waiting for you to zero in and define for me what deification of the flesh means, what it entails, what this "spiritualization of the body" actually entails. It doesn't mean we don't get sick. It doesn't mean we don't die. It's not an escape from corruption.

Well, if one takes the whole "relics" idea seriously, they would say that there IS some escape from corruption by God's energies permeating the corporeal aspect of a human "temple of the Holy Spirit."

On some level, I think it's simply seeing the "material" for what it really is: "condensations" of God's energies for our participation. Seeing created matter/energy as theophanic revelation of God.

I mean really. Knowing what we know about matter and energy...and believing theologically that all created matter/energy is grounded in Uncreated Energy/Presence...is it really all THAT much of something that human flesh could "shine" with divine energy? Really?

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 1/24/2010 4:51:08 AM (GMT-6)

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:49 AM (GMT -6)

D: Hence my statement: True memorialists have no context at all to connect deification of the body (by Christ's energies) to the Eucharist. Why? Because they don't believe that ANY sanctifying or deifying "grace" happens at the Lord's Supper. No type of spiritualization of the believer's human physicality AT ALL is seen.

T: I'm trying to keep in mind your definition of "memorialism." Your talking about people who don't believe God is present blessing people and imparting grace during communion in ANY sense.

Who believes this again?

Anyhow, I don't believe it. But the thing is, believing that God as grace is present in the celebration of the table, and in ways that impact the bodies of believers (maybe healing them, maybe making their bodies MORE surrendered to the Spirit as believers, contemplating the Cross, DECIDE to yield more of their selves and bodies to Christ, etc.), doesn't require what it seems to me YOU'RE describing, i.e., God "in" the elements and grace moving (by faith) FROM THE MATERIAL OF THE ELEMENT TO THE MATERIAL THAT IS MY BODY. I don't see that at all. But I DO think our bodies are temples of the Spirit and that grace is mediated via communion, and that wherever we contemplate the Cross and embrace the grace of God it will make a difference in how we use our bodies and what we dedicate them to. But that the cells of my body are spiritualized BY THE MATERAL OF THE ELEMENTS? Nah.

Maybe if you tell me just what the deificiation of the body is I could see what it is I'm mission, what my body has and enjoys given my view and what it's missing giving your view.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:51 AM (GMT -6)

D: Why would "transmutation of elements" be needed to appropriate Grace from and participate in from Christ's sanctification of Creation via his Incarnation...if, at base, it's all the same stuff, really...just in different configurations?

T: Right. So what then HAPPENS to my body in your view that can't happen to my body in my view?

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
I'm trying to keep in mind your definition of "memorialism." Your talking about people who don't believe God is present blessing people and imparting grace during communion in ANY sense.

Who believes this again?

BAPTISTS and ANABAPTISTS.

Greg got the double-dose! icon_brows2

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:56 AM (GMT -6)

D: Well, if one takes the whole "relics" idea seriously, they would say that there IS some escape from corruption by God's energies permeating the corporeal aspect of a human "temple of the Holy Spirit."

T: Must not be much corruption if deified bodies still die and the worms eat them.

D: On some level, I think it's simply seeing the "material" for what it really is: "condensations" of God's energies for our participation. Seeing created matter/energy as theophanic revelation of God.

T: I'm down with that! Yeah. It's universally the case that God is in everything. But why then would a special prayer be needed to BRING IT about that this is true of the bread and wine (and then only with the bread and wine and not my breakfast or lunch)? I mean, I see God in my lunch (God is in poop, remember! Ha! Selah. Gosh). So what am I suppose to see in the elements that I don't see in my lunch?

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:57 AM (GMT -6)

Anabaptists believe that believers CANNOT be blessed by God, experience God, upon their reflection of the Cross during communion?

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:58 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
So what am I suppose to see in the elements that I don't see in my lunch?

Hey, take it further. What are you supposed to see in the elements...that you don't see in your OWN body and blood? Yeah.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

THAT was part of my question to Fr. Proctor...with respect to at Romans 12:1-2. "Living sacrfices"

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:04 AM (GMT -6)

My point exactly. This is why I can't see anything special in the elements. To say something special is HERE that's not over THERE is to deny the very thing you're saying, viz., that God's energies are everywhere and we partake of them all the time. I mean, no priest I know thinks eating a Whopper under any circumstances can mediate what's mediated in the elements. So he must be positing something in the elements that cannot be in the Whopper. What is THAT if God's energies are all that prevades created entities and those energies are in everything? So the only way I see to make communion special and unique is via memorializing it, by faith, through contemplating of the meaning of theses symbols that the whole church agrees upon. It's like staring at the Statute of Libertry. The statute isn't libertry. It isn't courage. It isn't openning to other peoples. It REPRESENTS those things. Those things exist (or they don't) IN US. When we gaze upon the Statute of Liberty and contemplate its history and meaning, THEN we gain new resolve and are empowered to CHOOSE to dispose ourselves and give our bodies to realize the ideals it stands for. WE become more statutes of liberty (pardon the nationalism, it's just an analogy) the more we contemplate the symbols we've set up as a means of reminding us of what we stand for.

What is so difficult about this? Dang.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:04 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Anabaptists believe that believers CANNOT be blessed by God, experience God, upon their reflection of the Cross during communion?

Anabaptist believe that believers CANNOT experience Spiritually-empowering and/or and bodily-empowering Grace associated with Christ's "Real Presence" from participation in Communion. Why? Because it's ONLY seen as a memorial symbol...and not any means receiving spiritual or bodily empowerment directly from "taking in" Christ.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:07 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
The only I way I see to make communion special and unique is via memorializing it, by faith, through contemplating of the meaning of theses symbols that the whole church agrees upon.

That's why epiclesis is functionally INSEPARABLE from Anamnesis.

Both/and...not either/or.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:09 AM (GMT -6)

Perhaps deification of the flesh entails "making it transparent" to the Uncreated Spirit grounding it in all ways. Hence, how Jesus' flesh was "transparent" to the Majestic Glory of God on Tabor.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:09 AM (GMT -6)

Once again, very specifically, do Anabaptists believe that believers cannot be blessed by God, canont experience Christ, upon their reflection of the Cross during communion? I doubt anybody would deny that believers can and do experience Christ.

They may deny (as would I) that their physical bodies BECOME the literal material body of Jesus. But that's not to deny that God is present or can be experienced by believers during communion. You see this right?

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:12 AM (GMT -6)

D: Perhaps deification of the flesh entails "making it transparent" to the Uncreated Spirit grounding it in all ways.

T: Making it translparent to whom? If believers, then that's a transformation of perception that effected through contemplating the logoi of all created beings and not through the elements per se. If unbelievers, then how are they to perceive the divine ground of our physical bodies?

D: Hence, how Jesus' flesh was "transparent" to the Majestic Glory of God on Tabor.

T: I'm just trying to grasp this, D. Forgive me Q's.

So when Jesus was NOT shinning, was his flesh as deified as when it was shinning? Do you think that Protestants who don't view the eucharist the way you do (say even memorialists--I guess I already asked this!) but who love God and grow in grace can also shine transparently with the glory of God? I think you said they can. So what the heck is effected in us via the elements that can only be effected in us via the elements? So far I can't see ANYTHING that a memorialist can't enjoy and experience and look forward to that the Orthodox can't enjoy and experience and look forward to. If I'm wrong, then tell me WHAT IT IS that the Orthodox get that the rest of us forfit.

KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 1/24/2010 5:17:25 AM (GMT-6)

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:14 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Once again, very specifically, do Anabaptists believe that believers cannot be blessed by God, canont experience Christ, upon their reflection of the Cross during communion? I doubt anybody would deny that believers can and do experience Christ.

Going by Greg, it would say that Anabaptists can knowingly experience Christ's (Omni)presence. Knowing (like Greg said) that where two or three are gathered in his Name, Christ will be in the midst. And the would see that recognition of Christ's presence as a blessing.

Anabaptists (including Greg) would NOT say that during communion, divine empowerment of spiritual and corporeal beings through God Himself directly working in our bodies, giving us a sense of empowering interpenetration by Christ's Real Presence.

No way.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:17 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
D: Perhaps deification of the flesh entails "making it transparent" to the Uncreated Spirit grounding it in all ways.

T: Making it translparent to whom? If believers, then that's a transformation of perception that effected through contemplating the logoi of all created beings and not through the elements per se. If unbelievers, then how are they to perceive the divine ground of our physical bodies?

Ok. So you'd say that nothing physically changed with Jesus on Tabor. More like, the Spirit allowed the disciples on the mountain to "see" the reality behind the "icon" in Jesus' humanity. The Divine Glory shining from Jesus was ALWAYS THERE but not seen (like Elisha and the host of invisible angels he enabled his peep to see)...until the Spirit allowed the disciples to see it.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:20 AM (GMT -6)

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:23 AM (GMT -6)

Tom:
So when Jesus was NOT shinning, was his flesh as deified as when it was shinning?

Perhaps the uncreated light is ALWAYS shining, but because of spiritual cloudedness, it cannot always been seen. Yeah...

***************************

Tom:
Do you think that Protestants who don't view the eucharist the way you do (say even memorialists--I guess I already asked this!) but who love God and grow in grace can also shine transparently with the glory of God? I think you said they can. So what the heck is effected in us via the elements that can only be effected in us via the elements? So far I can't see ANYTHING that a memorialist can't enjoy and experience and look forward to that the Orthodox can't enjoy and experience and look forward to. If I'm wrong, then tell me WHAT IT IS that the Orthodox get that the rest of us forfit.

I think the Orthodox have a view of Eucharist that truly does make it actual divine NOURISHMENT for all aspects of the human being. I just don't see that with strict memorialism.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Tom
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:23 AM (GMT -6)

D: Ok. So you'd say that nothing physically changed with Jesus on Tabor.

T: Sure, I think Jesus shone with glory.

The question is, what's the relationship between this and the believer's participation in the elements? Is this posibility open to ONLY those who knowingly by faith call upon the Spirit to fall upon/into the elements in EO fashion? Can no protestant ever shine with God's glory?

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 1/24/2010 6:27 AM (GMT -6)

D: Anabaptists (including Greg) would NOT say that during communion, divine empowerment of spiritual and corporeal beings through God Himself directly working in our bodies, giving us a sense of empowering interpenetration by Christ's Real Presence.

T: Wow. So Greg denies that God can heal our bodies? He denies that Christ's presence is in/with/under him and all things?

Maybe you should clarify for me what you mean by "Christ's REAL presence." Is that something different that just "Christ's presence"? Do you mean Christ's PHYSICAL presence, the MATERIAL PRESENCE of THE GLORIFIED BODY of the historical Jesus?

Christ's Real Presence, as I understand it, is the fulness of his presence...that would be personal, spiritual, mental, and physical. Since both Jesus' material presence and my material presence are essentially of the same "Big-Bang-Stuff", I really don't have a problem undersanding the physical aspect of Christ's Real Presence as revelation of that reality through eating the bread and wine. It's ALL energy, dawg.

Lord Jesus, have mercy.

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