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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
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Posted 3/16/2010 7:00 AM (GMT -6)

Predestination, Providence, and Prayer

Fr. Thomas Hopko explains how our acts, especially our prayers, are included in God's predestination based on His foreknowledge, and how our free-will actions, particularly our prayers, contribute to God's providence in our lives.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/predestination

Length: 53:56

(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 3/16/2010 7:04:43 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 3/16/2010 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

So close on some points but so far away on others. The Calvinists are right in criticizing this view of predestination based on foreknowledge of free acts. It's providentially vacuous; the least plausible/coherent view on providence and prayer I know of.

Was I too obvious?

KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 3/16/2010 9:12:53 AM (GMT-5)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/16/2010 12:02 PM (GMT -6)

Tom, what did you mean by "providentially vacuous?"

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
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Posted 3/16/2010 12:18 PM (GMT -6)

A seventy-year-old woman in our churrch wook discussion said Sunday that she can ONLY be a caalvinist if she understands God to not be bound in time.

Prayer, then, is not time-dated. Prayer glorifies God -- primarily. Aand God in his sovereignty acts.

Love is not bound by time -- the mathematitian on NUMBERS tv show said st a wedding he officiated at.

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/16/2010 12:54 PM (GMT -6)

Tom said...
...predestination based on foreknowledge of free acts...

Tom, that is not exactly what he's saying. Listen again.

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/16/2010 1:53 PM (GMT -6)

Prayer is coworking..."cofashioning"...

(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 3/17/2010 2:54:40 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 3/17/2010 1:34 PM (GMT -6)

B: Tom, what did you mean by "providentially vacuous?"

T: I mean the view on foreknowledge argued by Fr Hopko can’t explain how God interacts providentially with us the way he says it does. There’s no providential use or advantage gained from his version of divine foreknowledge.

-------------------

T: ...predestination based on foreknowledge of free acts...

B: …that is not exactly what he’s saying. Listen again.

T: Actually that’s precisely what he says. God elects and acts providentially in the world based on his foreknowledge. God foreknows those who freely choose him and then elects (and calls, and glorifies) those individuals. And all God's other providential works in the world are similarly based on and informed by his foreknowledge. I listened pretty well. And he discusses these points at length in his dissertation on Process theism too, so he’s pretty clear on it. He believes of course that God (and God’s knowledge) is “outside of time,” but that doesn’t solve any problems. That IS the problem.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 2:38 PM (GMT -6)

Tom said...
"foreknowledge of free acts"

The free acts part is Hopko's. Amd the foreknowledge too -- but not as though God is in tims -- as a blueprint view would hold.

Sorry for my confusion. (I plan to check back at the minute 6-7 portion.)

Now I'll go read what you wrote, Tom. I plan to consider it for a time before responding to it.

Bruce

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 2:41 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks for listening so carefully, Tom.

Now, if I may, what do you mean by 'solve any problems?'

(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 3/17/2010 2:55:22 PM (GMT-5)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 2:43 PM (GMT -6)

I thought THIS part very helpful, solving some problems for me.

.........
Prayer is coworking..."cofashioning"...

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 2:53 PM (GMT -6)

the created participating, by grace, in the uncreated

(o)

Tom
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Posted 3/17/2010 3:12 PM (GMT -6)

By "solving problems" I mean "explain things," like how God relates and acts in response to the world providentially. To say that God bases his providential acts in the world on his foreknowledge of our choices doesn't work, since our choices already (logically even, not temporally) presuppose the acts of God. They can't also be the basis upon which God decides what to do. Uploading the whole history of God's responses to us (and ours to God) into timeless eternity doesn't help. It's still the case that God's providential acts are determined on the basis of our (foreknown) choices. There's nothing gained providentially by uploading it all into timeless eternity, and nothing providentially lost if God were viewed as responding in time to us. Hopko's view is essentially just pre-recorded open theism. Same freedom, same supposed divine responsiveness and conditioned acts, etc. He just wants to say it's all known timelessly and that supposing this is true is what grounds his confidence in providence and its effectiveness.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 8:25 PM (GMT -6)

Tom said...

...since our choices already...presuppose the acts of God. They can't also be the basis upon which God decides what to do. Uploading the whole history of God's responses to us (and ours to God) into timeless eternity doesn't help. It's still the case that God's providential acts are determined on the basis of our (foreknown) choices.

I see what you are thinking.

I paid attention to the story of the bible, as he related it. Moreso than philosophical structure...

****HE OFTEN GETS THESE TRANSCRIPTED -- WHICH MAY BE OF INTEREST TO YOU.

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 8:30 PM (GMT -6)

Tom said...
just pre-recorded open theism. Same freedom, same supposed divine responsiveness and conditioned acts, etc. He just wants to say it's all known timelessly and that supposing this is true is what grounds his confidence in providence and its effectiveness.

THE SUBTLE DIFFERENCE IS THAT IT SEEMS SO MAN-CENTERED, (oooops...pardon the caps.)

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 8:40 PM (GMT -6)

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PotOnWheel
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Posted 3/17/2010 8:42 PM (GMT -6)

Does your library need this, Tom?

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 3/17/2010 8:48 PM (GMT -6)

The End of Suffering: Finding Purpose in Pain
by Scott Cairns

$15.99

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 3/17/2010 8:49 PM (GMT -6)

the telos of suffering.....

(o)

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