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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/19/2010 2:01 PM (GMT -6) |   | | To Immanuel...
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
...
"Worthy are You, the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
...
"To him who sits on the throne and to you, the Lamb of God, be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/19/2010 7:24 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/20/2010 2:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah. Future pacing is basically the same thing as living proleptically in a believed future state. In other words, in future pacing, there is visualization of possible future events for the sake of living in (or preparing to live in) the reality of said events in the present. You start experiencing/practicing something NOW that you believe that you will be doing in future.
Here's my thinking. As I see it, existential nihilism works this way for many atheists and agnostics. If a person "fast-forwards" to the end of human history...and all they "see" is the end of entropy and lifeless silence where the universe USED to be, then they bring that "nothingness" into the present as despair in the form of existential nihilism. If I genuinely believe that, in the end, human existence is nothing and comes to nothing, that I will project nothingness right now. May as well, right? If the Titanic is sinking, and there's no lifeboat for me, why am I gonna waste time straightening chairs, right?
Well, this thinking can go the other way, too. If a person is convinced of God's Presence (Love) is the ultimate reality BEHIND even the "void" , then when they "fast-forward" to the end of human history...and all they "see" is the Triune God's omnipresent uncreated energies at work in and through the Risen Jesus, then they can bring "eternity" into the present as faith in the form of epicletic, proleptic existence in the Kingdom of God.
Christ himself was treated as “the New Man” and the last Adam. The divine plan of salvation was consummated, the kingdom of God inaugurated through Christ, but the ultimate things were yet to come in fullness and glory. The king had come, but the kingdom was still to come. The promise of the kingdom was granted to the church by the Holy Spirit. The church has lived since then in two dimensions: in sight of ongoing secular history and world events in the time of decay and oblivion, but also in the time of the heavenly kingdom inaugurated by the risen savior (in which the church has lived epicletically in the expectation of the kingdom.)
The coming of Christ and the resurrection changed completely the human situation, for in fallen existence, the time form of the world is characterized by law (nomos); this implies that humans were involved in an irreversible chain of decay and corruption, which led them to mortality with no hope of undoing the things they had done. Everything that had been done became ontologically necessary, so that there was no way to overcome this necessity, which is indicated by the word “law”. The coming of Christ and the resurrection relieved us from this law; we are still living in the world or “fallen” temporal order, but we are relieved from the necessity of the law; that is, we have a chance of renewal and of entering the kingdom [of God], cleansing ourselves through constant participation in the resurrection of the Lord.
Alexei V. Nesteruk, Light from the East: Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition, p.246
So...
The statements above to Immanuel are from Revelation 5...
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Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
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The thought is simple: If EUR is true (and I believe it is, for multiple reasons )...and "every creature in heaven and earth" are gonna be worshipping God like this in the consummated future...I may as well just do it now. As I say the words, I future-pace Christ's reign on earth...but actually live IN Christ's reign NOW.
Futurepacing.
Hope this explains things...
Post Edited (One Love) : 3/20/2010 2:22:38 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/20/2010 4:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Thought:
Perhaps this is why some Christians live unforgiven by God in the present. In their minds, they believe that they WILL BE unforgiven in some eternal hell in the future, being judged as unworthy of "heaven"...so they say "F$ck it." in the present. They say "I'm going to hell anyways. So, I'll do what I do until then anyways, right now." Basically, they say "I am unforgiven, and I will REMAIN unforgiven."...and live that out. I think D. Anthony Storm's view of SK's thought here is spot on...
B: THE SIN OF DESPAIRING OF THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS (OFFENSE)
Kierkegaard established earlier that conscious despair is either in weakness or in defiance. Here he says that when we posit the individual before God as a sinner, weakness and defiance exchange roles. The weakness of not willing to be oneself, becomes defiance, since the sinner refuses to admit what he is—a sinner. Conversely, defiant despair, willing to be oneself, that is, willing to be and remain a sinner, is weakness, in that there is no forgiveness. Despairing sin, when it refuses forgiveness, is the most intense sin of all.* Kierkegaard seems to be saying that both types of conscious despair are at work in the person who is presented forgiveness, but consciously refuses: He refuses to acknowledge that he is a sinner, and also refuses forgiveness. Kierkegaard is not contradicting himself, since he said earlier that "No despair is entirely free of defiance; indeed, the very phrase 'not to will to be' implies defiance". This explains how weakness and defiance can appear to change roles. All despair shares the same underlying function. Kierkegaard again returns to the theme of the individual before God and the offense.
[I definitely remember feeling this in my own life when I was a teenager in church. For real. ]
Now, what if Christians were taught the infinity and eternity of God's forgiveness (Grace)...and the finitude and impermenance of their faulty perspectives (sins)? What if Christians were taught that it's an eternally recurring choice of God's to forgive us and unconditionally love us? What if Christians could "futurepace" that reality, in and through Eucharistic living...in the present?
Wouldn't Christians just be better off? I think so. 
The new variation of futurepacing could go like this:
"God's going to keep offering forgiveness to me for my sin. He's never gonna stop offering...no matter how unforgivable I perceive myself as being. So...I may as well go ahead and accept this now. It's inevitable."
Talk about the "Hound of Heaven"...
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Sidenote: This song reminds me of Love's Omnipresence...and the reminder to us when we sin. Just think about it. Imagine God saying this to us when you sin...waiting for us to repent...
This, is our fork in the road
Love's last episode
There's nowhere to go, oh no
You made your choice, now it's up to me
To bow out gracefully
Though you hold the key, but baby
Whenever you call me, I'll be there
Whenever you want me, I'll be there
Whenever you need me, I'll be there
I'll be around
I, knew just what to say
Now I found out today
That all the words had slipped away, but I know
There's always a chance
A tiny spark remains, yeah
And sparks turn into flames
And love can burn once again, but I know you know
Whenever you call me, I'll be there
Whenever you want me, I'll be there
Whenever you need me, I'll be there
I'll be around...yeah
Whenever you call me, I'll be there
Whenever you want me, I'll be there
Even if I have to call, I'll be there
I'll be around
Just call me at home, I'll be there
I'll never leave you alone, I'll be there
Just call out your name you know I know you know
I'll be around...
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*Interestingly enough, the cure for this despair is inherent in the Jesus Prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." On one hand, the person "before God" admits that she is a sinner. On the other hand, the person's "cry for mercy" assumes God's willingness to bestow forgiveness upon the sinner. Thoroughly applied, the Jesus Prayer is a practical antidote for the "sin of despairing of the forgiveness of sins."
Post Edited (One Love) : 3/20/2010 5:19:22 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/20/2010 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Theologically, we find D's point in the now/not yet themes of Scripture—some of these passages might have come from this board from previous posts, but I don't remember:
The Kingdom of heaven: Christ says it was among them right then (Matthew 12:28, Luke 17:21), but then also said that they were waiting for it (Matthew 6:10, Luke 21:31)
The Adoption: Paul says that we have now received the spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15), and John says that we are now children of God (1 John 3:2), but Paul also says that we are waiting for the adoption (Romans 8:23, see also 1 John 3:2)
Salvation: We have been saved (Eph 2:8, 2 Tim. 1:9), we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, Phil 2:12-13), we are waiting to be saved (Acts 15:11, 1 Peter 1:9)
Glorification: We have already been glorified by virtue of being elected and justified (Romans 8:30) and we will be glorified after we have suffered for Christ (Romans 8:16)
Eternal Life: We have it now (John 6:47), we are waiting for it (Mark 10:30)
Judgment: the world has been judged (John 12:31), the world is being judged (Matthew 25), the world will be judged (Matthew 12:41, Hebrews 9:27)
Death: It has been abolished (2 Timothy 1:10), it will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26)
Surely, we are to live as if it is, which it is, but which it will also be.
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