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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 9:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | From Cornerstone's "What We Believe":
"In the resurrection of both those who believe in Jesus and those who do not believe: those believing to eternal life with Christ and those unbelieving to eternal punishment in hell."
Hey...can't win 'em all. Yo, wanna email Francis about what we've been talking about ? All the Scripture, I mean... Why not? 
(Like Isaiah 60 and Revelation 20-21...)
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | Oh, dude. I didn't tell you. I had a conversation with my father-in-law about universalism from the Bible (we focused a lot of time in Isaiah 60 and Rev. 20-21). He believed in an eternal hell where there was no salvation for anyone who experienced the "second death." After we talked, he admitted that the conquered humans "bringing their glory" into the New Jerusalem HAD to come from the "lake of fire."
Man...he SAW it.
He REALLY saw it.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/10/2010 9:22:07 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/10/2010 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Hahahahaha!
Um, hayyyell yes!
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 4/10/2010 9:33:49 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/10/2010 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
What are you doing this afternoon? I might be in Roseville at the Mall there for a few hours. I grew up first across from the State Fair, and then north of Lake Johanna, and then just west of it as far as you can carry a canoe on your shoulders to it.
In junior high I used to go up on my roof to look at the progress BUILDING Rosedale.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | | I just love it...
Some Isaiah 60...
Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
For behold, darkness shall cover the earth,
and thick darkness the peoples;
but the Lord will arise upon you,
and his glory will be seen upon you.
And nations shall come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your rising.
...
Foreigners shall build up your walls,
and their kings shall minister to you;
for in my wrath I struck you,
but in my favor I have had mercy on you.
Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.
The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
the cypress, the plane, and the pine,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the Lord,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
--------------------------------
Some Revelation 21...following the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20.
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/10/2010 12:43:56 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 1:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
What's interesting is that John sees the fulfillment of what Isaiah anticipates as coming AFTER the White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire.
EXACTLY. No one can dodge that.
PLUS...something else. Note well that "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb" is DISTINCT from the "kings" and "nations" coming into the New Jerusalem in the Revelation...JUST LIKE "Zion" is distinct from the "kings" and "nations" coming into it in Isaiah. Dang near direct parallel!
So, looking at Isaiah 60, who the "kings" and "nations" are in Revelation would seem to be pretty friggin OBVIOUS...especially if they are NOT the Redeemed Bride of Christ!
Dude, what biblically-minded conservative evangelical could DENY all this? For real...
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/10/2010 1:17:59 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 3:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 3:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey, bad teaching, uncircumsized heart, etc. I don't know. Glad I see it now! When can we tell everybody?!? 
Oh, yeah. I'm going to Roseville in about 30mins. Where will you be at? TGIs? Call me, dawg...
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Oh, well, man. We'll catch up soon.
But seriously, man. Do you see ANY biblical argument against what we're saying above? Really. How sound do you think this is? It seems solid as everything to me.
Like you said...it was always there.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/10/2010 3:54:51 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 3:52 PM (GMT -6) | | It's THIS simple...
Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet’?
If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.
Just stuff IN THE TEXT!!!
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/10/2010 6:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tom and D.
Did you guys watch Chan before making comments about what Cornerstone church believes? If not, you really should. That guys character,walk with the Lord, and humility are obvious... and besides that he's a brother. You should hear his testimony. If his life story doesn't convince you that he'd be a guy god would use big-time, I dont know what would...
Anyway, I'm sure Chan is OK if you disagree with some of his theology. People disagree wtih mine and I'm fine with that. They're just beliefs! I hold them ...but I make sure I hold the non-dogma ones loosely. If I didnt, I might become prideful - especially if MY view were to go against tradition. I mean how can I NOT get life from that? I mean i have THE view!
...sound familiar??
So regarding your perspective on hell. What convinces me most that you guys are wrong is the prideful way you talk about how right you are. Maybe that's something to think about. No matter how you slice it, hell (ECT)is the traditional view ... which means ... people just as 'smart' (maybe smarter) and holy (maybe holier) as you guys believe different from you. That's how I see Chan's churches beliefs. They are just as valid as mine or yours...aren't they?
Now say someone calls me out on a character issue, that's when I stop everything and get back to work on "the inside of the cup." Knowledge wont matter in the end... at least in my view it wont. Loving our brothers and sisters just as we would want to be loved will matter.
for what its worth,
T
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love." ~ Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
Some things...
1) I watched the Chan youtube you sent and other stuff on his website. The reason why I posted all that stuff is because I REALLY LIKE his stuff. I thought that I said that. I plan on getting his book. Of course, he's a brother in Christ. Did anyone say otherwise?
2) I'd really like you to deal less what how you perceive the tone, and the actual biblical material presented. If you are offended (and it seems that you are) about my "can't win em all" statement, then Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. I ask your forgiveness. Truly.
So...beyond that, would you look carefully at Isaiah 60 and Revelation 20-21 to see what I'm saying. It seems pretty airtight, but I wanna make totally sure...
Important points:
1) Tons of parallels between Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21.
2) As Tom said, the fulfilment in Revelation of what Isaiah anticipates occurs AFTER the White Throne Judgement and Lake of Fire. It's right there in the text.
3) The Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb" is DISTINCT from the "kings" and "nations" coming into the New Jerusalem following the White Throne Judgement...as they are NOT OF the Reedeemed "Wife" of Christ.
Mad love... 
YO, BRUCE! What are your thoughts on the whole Isaiah 60/Revelation 21 thing? I'd really like your perspective. Any bit of disconfimation at this point is WELCOME, y'all!!!
------------------------------------
Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
For behold, darkness shall cover the earth,
and thick darkness the peoples;
but the Lord will arise upon you,
and his glory will be seen upon you.
And nations shall come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your rising.
...
Foreigners shall build up your walls,
and their kings shall minister to you;
for in my wrath I struck you,
but in my favor I have had mercy on you.
Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.
The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
the cypress, the plane, and the pine,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the Lord,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
--------------------------------
From Revelation 21
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/10/2010 8:29:26 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 9:58 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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