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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 10:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | A little more for the "kings lead in procession" (Isaiah 60:11)
Psalm 149
Praise the Lord!
Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the godly!
Let Israel be glad in his Maker;
let the children of Zion rejoice in their King!
Let them praise his name with dancing,
making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
For the Lord takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with salvation.
Let the godly exult in glory;
let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their throats
and two-edged swords in their hands,
to execute vengeance on the nations
and punishments on the peoples,
to bind their kings with chains
and their nobles with fetters of iron,
to execute on them the judgment written!
This is honor for all his godly ones.
Praise the Lord!
Isaiah 24...some of it...
Terror and the pit and the snare
are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth!
He who flees at the sound of the terror
shall fall into the pit,
and he who climbs out of the pit
shall be caught in the snare.
For the windows of heaven are opened,
and the foundations of the earth tremble.
The earth is utterly broken,
the earth is split apart,
the earth is violently shaken.
The earth staggers like a drunken man;
it sways like a hut;
its transgression lies heavy upon it,
and it falls, and will not rise again.
On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be confounded
and the sun ashamed,
for the Lord of hosts reigns
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and his glory will be before his elders.
And just for total repetition...
Some Revelation 21...AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement...
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/10/2010 10:21:36 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 10:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/10/2010 10:28 PM (GMT -6) | | I'll just throw this out there...
Revelation 22
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
THERAPEIAN (meaning "medical attention") of the NATIONS.
Now ask yourself two questions:
1) Does the New Heavens/New Earth Redeemed "Bride" need "medical attention"?
2) Are the "nations" a part of the Redeemed Bride?
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/10/2010 10:32:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 12:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo. I hope y'all still rollin' with me here. Check this out.
This is from the Robin Parry book "Universal Salvation? The Current Debate". It's from Thomas Johnson's section called "A Wideness in God's Mercy: Universalism in the Bible". There is a section of it called "The Book of Revelation". The main sections to look at are pages 94-95. Then focus on the LAST TWO paragraphs of page 95.
Here's the last one...
Some have held that those thrown into the lake will be purified in it and eventually make their way into the open gates of the heavenly city. This is not impossible, though Revelation does not make it explicit. The purposes and duration of hell are left in the hands of the Lord and the Lamb.
Part of Note 56 (page 102):
[G.B ]Caird [A Commentary on Revelation of Saint John the Divine] (1966), pp 279-80: 'Nowhere in the New Testament do we find a more eloquent statement than this of the all-encompassing scope of Christ's redemptive work,' (ibid, p. 280).
Tom...it seems that Johnson NEVER MADE THE TIE between Revelation 21 and Isaiah 60! (No one in the BOOK did!) Revelation BY ITSELF may not make it "explicit", but put together with Isaiah 60, it's sure as hell isn't IMplicit! 
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 12:51:53 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh...and I was serious about Tom (or me, I guess) possibly emailing Pastor Chan. From what I've seen of him, he is about following what is IN THE TEXT. He has a VERY high view of Scripture. And he's willing to follow all the conclusions out as FAR as they need to be taken. You'd agree with that, right, Selah?
I genuinely wonder what Chan would say about all this stuff we are talking about right now. For real.
PS: Tom, if this really is "golden", I think you and me oughta set up a meeting with Greg and Paul Eddy ASAP. My theme phrase right now: "YEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH! O Let's Do It!"
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 8:29:36 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/11/2010 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 8:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
Look at your own clip...see what YOU highlighted? Now read and deal with the last sentence. Ask yourself "what are the presuppositions here?" come on....
"nor anyone who does what is detestable or false - but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life" - who are those who do things detestable or false? Where are they if they're never to enter the city?
You have to deal with the whole text. If there's ONE person whose name isn't written in the Lambs book of life - who wont be entering - ever! Then we have a problem with universal reconciliation. See how silly this stuff is?
Yeah. I anticipated this thought. Let's REALLY look at the text. What does it say? As I see it, all it really says is this:
"Anyone who enters the New Jerusalem 1) doesn't do what is destable and false and 2)has their name in the Lamb's book of life."
Basically, it's saying that the "kings" and "nations" who are coming into the New Jerusalem from OUTSIDE OF IT are truly DEFEATED, ie. they are now willing to SERVE God and His People.
Seriously. LOOK at it.
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
If you agree with me that the "kings of the earth" are NOT, I repeat, NOT part of the Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb"...then see the implications?
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 8:44:22 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 8:55 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
...
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
So...are the "kings of the earth" and the "nations" the SAME THING as the "Holy City"...aka the "Bride, the Wife of the Lamb? It's a pretty straightforward question.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 9:00:08 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/11/2010 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...Selah: you still have to deal with this: but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life. We know that names can be "blotted out" of the Book of Life. We know that names can be "written" in the Book of Life. Please show me some solid Scripture that shows that names that are "blotted out" of the Book can NEVER, BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS, be "written" again in the Book of Life by God Himself.
I suppose I could dig and find some other ones, but for me, this one is enough to at LEAST question my own leaning toward UR.
see caps below
But nothing unclean WILL EVER enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I know I know you'll say something like this: "basically that means everyone will be CLEAN when they enter ... cuz god cleans them up" ...
got it.
but .... basically doesnt' cut it with me when it comes to scripture.
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love." ~ Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 9:34 AM (GMT -6) | | The question I'm talking about, T., is this one...
Do you agree with me that the "kings of the earth" and "nations" in Revelation 21 does NOT, I repeat, NOT refer to the Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb"?
Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
...
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
So...are the "kings of the earth" and the "nations" the SAME THING as the "Holy City"...aka the "Bride, the Wife of the Lamb? It's a pretty straightforward question.
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selah
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Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/11/2010 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | heres the deal, D.
I'm a radical jesus freak... so I do radical freaky things. I fully admit that what I'm about to share isnt' 'normal' and I know its coming from the existentialist in me, ok? But its where I'm at for now.
Here's how I think about you (and paul and greg etc.) and here's why I'm not responding to your last post.
I think "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is more complex than it sounds. To me, to really love someone I think we have to refuse to feed anything we see as a competing love. We have to know the difference between encouraging someone in their gifts and giving someone another reason to believe they are self-sufficient and able to get worth from the world. (That's why I opt out of things like being Greg's "fan" on facebook and everything that feeds his ego/pride/accomplishments/fame(barf))... and that's also why I dont engage too much here. Sometimes the topics seem to be really important to prove or somthing...and its like theres a value in that. To me there's no value in it. It is just an opinion or a clever idea...which in the end, are both meaningless. If we think there's value in it we might be woo'd to spend a lot of time thinking about it... which can lead us away from focusing on our first love. Since falling in love with something other than God is an over-time process, I think we have to keep an eye out for ourselves and others to make sure no one is being woo'd to fall in love early on. If we dont do that, we might actually participate in the process! Which to me being the radical freak I am - means we'd be doing the opposite of what we're supposed to do.
I'm not saying "intellect is bad" or that we shouldnt wrestle with theology together. I think we should! But I'm sensitive to how some things can become a 'slow fade" and lead us into something that's more about US than it is about God, y'know? I think about the whole UR like this: How on earth could I stay humble if I were to really believe I've come to a better, more well thought out and refined view of something that's been the traditional view forever? I mean come on! Everytime I lay out my "tight" argument, I lift myself up (at least a little) inside....and I get further from my first love and closer to my counterfeit love Pride sneaks up on us...we dont set out to become prideful.
Anyhoooooo, that's how I do it. Its weird and totally flawed, I know. I'm sure many people are able to avoid pride and keep their first love even when it seemed to me they were getting life from this or that along the way. Either way, it doesn't hurt anyone if I opt out just in case. And, at least right now, I see my opting out as love.
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
Post Edited (selah) : 4/11/2010 11:27:08 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 4/11/2010 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah: "But nothing unclean WILL EVER enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life." I know I know you'll say something like this: "basically that means everyone will be CLEAN when they enter ... cuz god cleans them up" but that basically doesn't cut it with me when it comes to scripture.
Tom: But T, then I think you have to be consistent and say that whatever is NOW not clean will never enter the city either. But unclean people are finding faith, changing, and entering the new Jerusalem (the city IS the People of God anyhow). That is, forgetting eschatology and just focusing on the linguistic part, if you say the language "no unclean thing will ever enter it" is best understood as foreclosing all possibility of changing and THEN entering, then wouldn't you have to apply the same thing NOW, i.e., if somebody is NOW unclean they can never enter. But they ARE entering now. So it doesn't seem like you can appeal to the LANGUAGE of "no unclear thing will ever enter" to argue against UR. You'd have to argue something ELSE (from the context or whatever). See what I mean? In other words, "being unclean" can't be a reason for thinking no change is possible (because unclean people do change). So you must be getting something from the words "will ever." But those only apply to "unclean," AS A STATE OF MISRELATION. But what if that state of misrelation changes? What in the text tells you that's a misreading of the passage ESPECIALLY when the text really does envision a time (in the eschaton) when those who were unclear do in fact come into the city?
Hehe.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 4/11/2010 4:06:37 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 11:31 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 11:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/11/2010 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah. Just pretend I'm some random Joe Blow person asking you this question. It's THAT KIND of question.
Let's rephase it:
True or False:
The "kings of the earth" and "nations" in Revelation 21 are NOT referring to the Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb."
Don't leave me hangin' like that...
How about just a T or an F. Doesn't that simplify things?
Sheesh. I'm so desperate for some feedback on this, EVERYONE can do it.
Look, I'll start. "T"
Next?
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 11:40:13 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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