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  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/11/2010 11:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
    |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/11/2010 12:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/11/2010 12:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/11/2010 12:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  selah Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1210 | Posted 4/11/2010 2:23 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sorry, I took a nap! haha
Great job giving a description of Chans message. Just for fun, let me tweak one of your senteces.
As a matter of fact, he made very clear about his "simple" (as in straightforward - so as to avoid the temptation to say "basically this means _____" and insert his own thoughts) manner of reading the Bible and trying to take it for what it says and DO what it says...and how countercultural that is - especially for bible believing people in the Church.
Bonhoeffer on the 'simple manner of reading the Bible'
If Jesus said to someone: "Leave all else behind and follow me; resign your profession, quit your family, your people, and the home of your fathers," then he knew that to this call there was only one answer - the answer of single-minded obedience, and that it is only to this obedience that the promise of fellowship with Jesus is given. But we should probably argue thus: "Of course we are meant to take the call of Jesus with 'absolute seriousness,' but after all the way of obedience would be to continue all the more in our present occupations, to stay with our families, and serve him there in a spirit of true inward detachment." If Jesus challenged us with the command: "Get out of it," we should take him to mean: "Stay where you are, but cultivate that inward detachment." Again, if he were to say to us: "Be not anxious," we should take him to mean: "Of course it is not wrong for us to be anxious: we must work and provide for ourselves and our dependents. If we did not we should be shirking our responsibilities. But all the time we ought to be inwardly free from all anxiety." Perhaps Jesus would say to us: "Whosoever smiteth thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." We should then suppose him to mean: "The way really to love your enemy is to fight him hard and hit him back." {HA} Jesus might say: "Seek first the Kingdom of God," and we should interpret it thus: "Of course we should have to seek all sort of other things first; how could we otherwise exist? What he really means is the final preparedness to stake all on the Kingdom of God." All along the line we are trying to evade the obligation of single-minded, literal obedience. How is such absurdity possible? What has happened that the word of Jesus can be thus degraded by this trifling, and thus left open to the mockery of the world? When orders are issued in other spheres of life there is no doubt whatever of their meaning. If a father sends his child to bed, the boy knows at once what he has to do. But suppose he has picked up a smattering of pseudo-theology. In that case he would argue more or less like this: "Father tells me to go to bed, but he really means that I am tired, and he does not want me to be tired. I can overcome my tiredness just as well if I go out and play. Therefore though father tells me to go to bed, he really means: 'Go out and play.' If a child tried such arguments on his father or a citizen on his government, they would both meet with a kind of language they could not fail to understand - in short they would be punished. Are we to treat the commandment of Jesus differently from other orders and exchange single-minded obedience for downright disobedience? How could that be possible! ... from, The Cost of Discipleship ... Ok now my end: I reread it and the only answer I can give you right now is "I dont know" I have to have the question I asked Tom answered first. Let me come back to this after I read a little more, k? Ajna has good taste. loved the video ;o)
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love." ~ Soren Kierkegaard
Post Edited (selah) : 4/11/2010 2:54:50 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/11/2010 4:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Asher. Don't punk out on me, man. You NEVER do, when it comes to straightening out where I may be wrong. I'm counting on you. On er'ythang.
Hit me with your best shot. Please?
True or False:
The "kings of the earth" and "nations" in Revelation 21 are NOT referring to the Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb."
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Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
...
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 4:41:06 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/11/2010 4:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Asher Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 477 | Posted 4/11/2010 4:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey D,
Had some computer troubles kept me from posting.
So, where you're wrong is...
...nowhere man, I love it! Spot on, if you ask me. So let's get some life from how gracious the Lord is! | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/11/2010 11:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Hey, dawg. I'm gonna talk to Greg about this tomorrow after church. Seein' if we can't get Paul online quick. I typed everything out...and I'm synthesizing it now. Basically 3 linked ideas...
1) In Revelations 21:22-27, the "kings of the earth" and "nations" do not refer to anyone in the Redeemed "Bride, Wife of the Lamb", the "holy city Jerusalem." In other words, the "kings" and "nations" are not to be identified with the "holy city Jerusalem."
2) The fulfilment in Revelation 21 of what Isaiah 60 anticipates (ie. conquered "kings" and "nations" bringing their glory into God's Holy City) occurs AFTER the White Throne Judgement and the "second death" in Revelation 20:7-15.
3) Given 1 and 2, it is reasonable to surmise that the "kings of the earth" and "nations" who are coming into the "holy city Jerusalem" (in Revelation 21:22-27) are coming from the "lake of fire", which would be the only other "location" of any human beings at that time.
Whatever conclusions he draws from that...well...
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 11:37:23 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/12/2010 12:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Those conquered "kings" and "nations"...
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Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
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“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
“And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 1:21:50 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/12/2010 12:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/12/2010 1:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | Selah: I think about the whole UR like this: How on earth could I stay humble if I were to really believe I've come to a better, more well thought out and refined view of something that's been the traditional view forever?
Here's one possible way, sis...
You ask the Spirit of the Lord constantly keep your sins and "no-thingness" before you that you may walk with Him in faith and Grace...saying "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" in your heart every spare moment you can. You do this trusting that the Spirit WANTS to keep you "walking humbly with your God"...and will empower you to do so.
Again, that's one way.
And Jesus said to him, “...All things are possible for one who believes.”
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 1:11:09 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 4/12/2010 7:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | It's symbolic and metaphorical.
And you are a fundamentalist....
One Love said...Selah. Just pretend I'm some random Joe Blow person asking you this question. It's THAT KIND of question. Let's rephase it: True or False:
The "kings of the earth" and "nations" in Revelation 21 are NOT referring to the Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb."
Don't leave me hangin' like that...
How about just a T or an F. Doesn't that simplify things?
Sheesh. I'm so desperate for some feedback on this, EVERYONE can do it.
Look, I'll start. "T"
Next?
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/12/2010 9:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/12/2010 10:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/12/2010 10:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Well, so much for originality...BUT...look at what "Gregory MacDonald" (Robin Parry) said in Scot McKnight's blog from a coupla months ago. (I hadn't read "The Evangelical Universalist." Sheesh...) From a review on Amazon.com...
Chapter 5 was my favorite chapter of the book. It provides a univeralist interpretation of Revelation. The gates of the New Jerusalem are never shut and people cross from the lake of fire into the New Jerusalem (ch. 21). Appendix 3 provides an interpretation of the Book of Life, which appears in Revelation.
Some of McKnight's blogpost...
Those who "like" or "find delight" in the Book of Revelation remind me of those who watched The Titanic and thought it was romantic and cute but failed to miss that thousands died a brutal, terrifying and tragic death. Robin Parry's (aka, Gregory Macdonald's) book The Evangelical Universalist examines the Book of Revelation because, if truth be told, the guts of the Christian belief in hell and judgment emerge as much from this (violent) book as much as from anywhere else.
Can the Book of Revelation be read as universalistic? What do you think of Parry's proposals?
I have the two major texts about hell after the jump. In this chp, which is too involved to do any more than just give some it here in summary form, Parry sketches (very well) two preliminary contexts: that judgment can be disciplinary and educative and lead to repentance and worship. Further, the texts John draws upon from the OT are texts that show the nations, after judgment, flocking to Zion to worship.
Parry's argument is that both of these hell texts are followed (15:2-4 and then chps 21--22) by salvation texts and can be read as universal redemption. What is so noticeable about 15:4 is that "nations" refers to those who have previously rebelled. But they are now worshiping God properly. Parry: Those who are currently under God's wrath for rebelling against God's people will be judged but will also be the group that will come and worship God.
And the City of Jerusalem in chps 21--22 has open gates ... and there are only two kinds of people: those in the City and those in the Lake of Fire. Those gates are open, therefore, for the nations to have a chance to enter.
Furthermore, Parry argues that the "forever and ever" of sulphur and fire are a "topos" drawn from Isaiah 34:8-10, the language used for the destruction of Babylon in the Old Testament. The language of "forever and ever" could be hyperbolic or perhaps does not refer to the judgment of humans but of the devil...
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Here's some follow-up posts, including one from ROBIN PARRY HIMSELF...
dopderbeck January 4, 2010 8:41 AM I agree that when you connect the OT prophetic literature, particularly Isaiah, with the NT apocalyptic, particularly Revelation, there is a sort of universalism in the treatment of "the nations": i.e., that all "the nations" universally will recognize who God is and worship Him. However, in the ANE context of the OT literature and the Second Temple context of the NT literature, I'm not convinced that this "worship" will in every case be the joyful response of redeemed citizens of the Kingdom. Much of the imagery in fact seems to be martial -- the defeated and humiliated foes of the true King being forced to acknowledge him. There is also the common missiological notion that all the "nations" (or "people groups" ) will be represented by some of the redeemed in heaven.
Then...
John W Frye January 4, 2010 11:23 AM http://www.jesustheradicalpastor.com I am with David (#2) on the use of "all nations" in Revelation. We need not conclude that every individual within all nations is eventually, though painfully redeemed.
Then Robin Parry replies...
John (#6),
what do you make of the fact that 'the nations' in Revelation are always distinguished from the church? The church are people called "out of every nation" and the nations are those who oppose Christ and the church. Yet in Rev 15 and Rev 21 it is "the nations" that come to worship. In the symbolic universe of Revelation we cannot mistake the referent (unless our theology requires us to do so - [evil laugh]).
Now you are right that "all nations" does not require every individual in every nation so this does not 'prove' full blown universalism (I say as much in the book). However, does it not, at very least, suggest that the majority of those in the sinful nations will come to worship, washed in the blood of the Lamb AFTER suffering eschatological punishment? That in itself would be an interesting conclusion.
Robin.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 11:10:01 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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