Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > "Man according to God's view"  Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
194 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 11:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yo, Asher! You're always good for some helpful feedback when it counts, dawg. Whussup??


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

selah
Registered Member




Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 11:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why can't it be consistent to say: God can and is and will clean some people up, but he is not going to clean up all people. How do you make sense of the latter part of the verse, T? "but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life".... doesn't that at least imply some aren't written in the book?


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 11:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
hmmm 
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 11:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh, well. I tried. It's all love, S.

Anyone else? ANYONE else?

This is just amazing to me. Really.

Damn.

FYI, Selah.  I'll probably be asking this same question to the Crew (Ty, Chels, etc) when we hook up.  Will you have an answer then, you think?

icon_brows2


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

selah
Registered Member




Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 12:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, maybe we can do a trade. If you tell me in one or two sentences what you think Chan was trying to get across in the sermon you watched, I'll come back and answer your question. Deal?

and yep, its alll love, D.
I'm just picking on you a little


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 12:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The title of the message was "The Joy in Suffering." I think he made a great confrontation of the "surprise" that many American Christians have about suffering...when the Bible is so explicit about EXPECTION of suffering. He relayed some very good stories about how Christian life in the pursuit of moving AWAY from suffering is actually bad for the intimacy. As a matter of fact, he made very clear about his "simple" manner of reading the Bible and trying to take it for what it says and do what it says...and how countercultural that is.

Now...your end of the deal?


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 12:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Waiting...


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 12:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sad 


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 12:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I like flyyyyyinggg... (Ajna loves Yo Gabba Gabba!)


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

selah
Registered Member




Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 2:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry, I took a nap! haha

Great job giving a description of Chans message. Just for fun, let me tweak one of your senteces.

As a matter of fact, he made very clear about his "simple" (as in straightforward - so as to avoid the temptation to say "basically this means _____" and insert his own thoughts) manner of reading the Bible and trying to take it for what it says and DO what it says...and how countercultural that is - especially for bible believing people in the Church.
 
Bonhoeffer on the 'simple manner of reading the Bible' 


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

Post Edited (selah) : 4/11/2010 2:54:50 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 4:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Asher. Don't punk out on me, man. You NEVER do, when it comes to straightening out where I may be wrong. I'm counting on you. On er'ythang.

Hit me with your best shot. Please?

True or False:

The "kings of the earth" and "nations" in Revelation 21 are NOT referring to the Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb."


-------------------------------------------------

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

...

And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 4:41:06 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 4:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whole thread


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

Asher
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 4:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey D,

Had some computer troubles kept me from posting.

So, where you're wrong is...



















...nowhere man, I love it! Spot on, if you ask me. So let's get some life from how gracious the Lord is!
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 4:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Asher:
So, where you're wrong is...

PRAISE GOD! Whew!

Listening...


************************************************

Asher:
...nowhere man, I love it! Spot on, if you ask me.

Ok. THANK YOU for answering. THANK YOU! Gracias.  Danke.  Merci.  Did I say "Thanks"?   icon_smile_tongue


***************************************

Asher:
So let's get some life from how gracious the Lord is!

Amen.  Morning by morning, new mercies I see...


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/11/2010 11:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey, dawg. I'm gonna talk to Greg about this tomorrow after church. Seein' if we can't get Paul online quick. I typed everything out...and I'm synthesizing it now.  Basically 3 linked ideas...
 
1) In Revelations 21:22-27, the "kings of the earth" and "nations" do not refer to anyone in the Redeemed "Bride, Wife of the Lamb", the "holy city Jerusalem."  In other words, the "kings" and "nations" are not to be identified with the "holy city Jerusalem."
 
2) The fulfilment in Revelation 21 of what Isaiah 60 anticipates (ie. conquered "kings" and "nations" bringing their glory into God's Holy City) occurs AFTER the White Throne Judgement and the "second death" in Revelation 20:7-15.
 
3) Given 1 and 2, it is reasonable to surmise that the "kings of the earth" and "nations" who are coming into the "holy city Jerusalem" (in Revelation 21:22-27) are coming from the "lake of fire", which would be the only other "location" of any human beings at that time. 

Whatever conclusions he draws from that...well...icon_brows2


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/11/2010 11:37:23 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 12:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Those conquered "kings" and "nations"...

------------------------------------

Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

 

------------------------------------

 

“And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 1:21:50 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 12:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Praise the Ancient of Days.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 1:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Selah:
I think about the whole UR like this: How on earth could I stay humble if I were to really believe I've come to a better, more well thought out and refined view of something that's been the traditional view forever?

Here's one possible way, sis...
 
You ask the Spirit of the Lord constantly keep your sins and "no-thingness" before you that you may walk with Him in faith and Grace...saying "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" in your heart every spare moment you can.  You do this trusting that the Spirit WANTS to keep you "walking humbly with your God"...and will empower you to do so.

Again, that's one way.

And Jesus said to him, “...All things are possible for one who believes.”


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 1:11:09 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 6:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: 1) In Revelations 21:22-27...

T (ripping his tunic and throwing dust into the air over his head): Arrrrghghghghhh! You said it in the plural..."RevelationS"...Noooooo! You pulled a Jimmy Swaggart on me. Nooo! He used say, "The eeeaziest book in the Biyebul t'understayind iza booka Revelayishunzzzz, glory to God!"

;o)


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 7:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

It's symbolic and metaphorical.

And you are a fundamentalist....  eek

One Love said...
Selah. Just pretend I'm some random Joe Blow person asking you this question. It's THAT KIND of question.

Let's rephase it:

True or False:

The "kings of the earth" and "nations" in Revelation 21 are NOT referring to the Redeemed "Wife of the Lamb."

Don't leave me hangin' like that...

How about just a T or an F.  Doesn't that simplify things?

Sheesh.  I'm so desperate for some feedback on this, EVERYONE can do it.

Look, I'll start.  "T"

Next?


(o)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 8:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm all ears Bruce. What would the 'nations' be a symbol of? What would their 'entering the city' be a symbol or metaphor of? It means SOMETHING. So what's it MEAN symbolically?

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 4/12/2010 9:36:08 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 9:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Exactly, Tom. Well, Bruce?


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 10:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Cool, S. Thanks for answering. If you'd like to share your scriptural reasons for holding that belief, that would be really helpful for me. If not, cool.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 10:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Whole thread


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 4/12/2010 10:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, so much for originality...BUT...look at what "Gregory MacDonald" (Robin Parry) said in Scot McKnight's blog from a coupla months ago. (I hadn't read "The Evangelical Universalist." Sheesh...)  From a review on Amazon.com...
 
Chapter 5 was my favorite chapter of the book. It provides a univeralist interpretation of Revelation. The gates of the New Jerusalem are never shut and people cross from the lake of fire into the New Jerusalem (ch. 21). Appendix 3 provides an interpretation of the Book of Life, which appears in Revelation.

Some of McKnight's blogpost...

Those who "like" or "find delight" in the Book of Revelation remind me of those who watched The Titanic and thought it was romantic and cute but failed to miss that thousands died a brutal, terrifying and tragic death. Robin Parry's (aka, Gregory Macdonald's) book The Evangelical Universalist examines the Book of Revelation because, if truth be told, the guts of the Christian belief in hell and judgment emerge as much from this (violent) book as much as from anywhere else.

Can the Book of Revelation be read as universalistic? What do you think of Parry's proposals?

I have the two major texts about hell after the jump. In this chp, which is too involved to do any more than just give some it here in summary form, Parry sketches (very well) two preliminary contexts: that judgment can be disciplinary and educative and lead to repentance and worship. Further, the texts John draws upon from the OT are texts that show the nations, after judgment, flocking to Zion to worship.

Parry's argument is that both of these hell texts are followed (15:2-4 and then chps 21--22) by salvation texts and can be read as universal redemption. What is so noticeable about 15:4 is that "nations" refers to those who have previously rebelled. But they are now worshiping God properly. Parry: Those who are currently under God's wrath for rebelling against God's people will be judged but will also be the group that will come and worship God.

And the City of Jerusalem in chps 21--22 has open gates ... and there are only two kinds of people: those in the City and those in the Lake of Fire. Those gates are open, therefore, for the nations to have a chance to enter.

Furthermore, Parry argues that the "forever and ever" of sulphur and fire are a "topos" drawn from Isaiah 34:8-10, the language used for the destruction of Babylon in the Old Testament. The language of "forever and ever" could be hyperbolic or perhaps does not refer to the judgment of humans but of the devil...

--------------------------------------
 
Here's some follow-up posts, including one from ROBIN PARRY HIMSELF...

dopderbeck
January 4, 2010 8:41 AM
I agree that when you connect the OT prophetic literature, particularly Isaiah, with the NT apocalyptic, particularly Revelation, there is a sort of universalism in the treatment of "the nations": i.e., that all "the nations" universally will recognize who God is and worship Him. However, in the ANE context of the OT literature and the Second Temple context of the NT literature, I'm not convinced that this "worship" will in every case be the joyful response of redeemed citizens of the Kingdom. Much of the imagery in fact seems to be martial -- the defeated and humiliated foes of the true King being forced to acknowledge him. There is also the common missiological notion that all the "nations" (or "people groups" ) will be represented by some of the redeemed in heaven.

Then...

John W Frye
January 4, 2010 11:23 AM
http://www.jesustheradicalpastor.com
I am with David (#2) on the use of "all nations" in Revelation. We need not conclude that every individual within all nations is eventually, though painfully redeemed.



Then Robin Parry replies...

John (#6),

what do you make of the fact that 'the nations' in Revelation are always distinguished from the church? The church are people called "out of every nation" and the nations are those who oppose Christ and the church. Yet in Rev 15 and Rev 21 it is "the nations" that come to worship. In the symbolic universe of Revelation we cannot mistake the referent (unless our theology requires us to do so - [evil laugh]).

Now you are right that "all nations" does not require every individual in every nation so this does not 'prove' full blown universalism (I say as much in the book).
However, does it not, at very least, suggest that the majority of those in the sinful nations will come to worship, washed in the blood of the Lamb AFTER suffering eschatological punishment? That in itself would be an interesting conclusion.

Robin.


Lord Jesus, have mercy.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 11:10:01 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
194 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 10:13 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads