 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > "Man according to God's view" | Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 11:16 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Isaiah 24...some of it...
Terror and the pit and the snare
are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth!
He who flees at the sound of the terror
shall fall into the pit,
and he who climbs out of the pit
shall be caught in the snare.
For the windows of heaven are opened,
and the foundations of the earth tremble.
The earth is utterly broken,
the earth is split apart,
the earth is violently shaken.
The earth staggers like a drunken man;
it sways like a hut;
its transgression lies heavy upon it,
and it falls, and will not rise again.
On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be confounded
and the sun ashamed,
for the Lord of hosts reigns
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and his glory will be before his elders.
Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
For behold, darkness shall cover the earth,
and thick darkness the peoples;
but the Lord will arise upon you,
and his glory will be seen upon you.
And nations shall come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your rising.
...
Foreigners shall build up your walls,
and their kings shall minister to you;
for in my wrath I struck you,
but in my favor I have had mercy on you.
Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.
The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
the cypress, the plane, and the pine,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the Lord,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
--------------------------------
Some Revelation 21...AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20.
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | Here's a simple way to do it. THIS PAGE represents a Bible-wide search for "kings of the earth" in ESV. Take a look.
1 Kings 4:34 (Show me 1 Kings 4)
And people of all nations came to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and from all the kings of the earth, who had heard of his wisdom.
1 Kings 10:23 (Show me 1 Kings 10)
Thus King Solomon excelled all the kings of the earth in riches and in wisdom.
2 Chronicles 9:22 (Show me 2 Chronicles 9)
Thus King Solomon excelled all the kings of the earth in riches and in wisdom.
2 Chronicles 9:23 (Show me 2 Chronicles 9)
And all the kings of the earth sought the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom, which God had put into his mind.
Psalm 2:2 (Show me Psalm 2)
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
Psalm 76:12 (Show me Psalm 76)
who cuts off the spirit of princes, who is to be feared by the kings of the earth.
Psalm 89:27 (Show me Psalm 89)
And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
Psalm 102:15 (Show me Psalm 102)
Nations will fear the name of the Lord, and all the kings of the earth will fear your glory.
Psalm 138:4 (Show me Psalm 138)
All the kings of the earth shall give you thanks, O Lord, for they have heard the words of your mouth,
Psalm 148:11 (Show me Psalm 148)
Kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all rulers of the earth!
Isaiah 24:21 (Show me Isaiah 24)
On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
Lamentations 4:12 (Show me Lamentations 4)
The kings of the earth did not believe, nor any of the inhabitants of the world, that foe or enemy could enter the gates of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 27:33 (Show me Ezekiel 27)
When your wares came from the seas, you satisfied many peoples; with your abundant wealth and merchandise you enriched the kings of the earth.
Matthew 17:25 (Show me Matthew 17)
He said, “Yes.” And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?”
Acts 4:26 (Show me Acts 4)
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’—
Or Christ
Revelation 6:15 (Show me Revelation 6)
Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
Or servant; Greek bondservant
Revelation 17:2 (Show me Revelation 17)
with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.”
Revelation 17:18 (Show me Revelation 17)
And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
Revelation 18:3 (Show me Revelation 18)
For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”
Some manuscripts fallen by
Revelation 18:9 (Show me Revelation 18)
And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.
Revelation 19:19 (Show me Revelation 19)
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
Revelation 21:24 (Show me Revelation 21)
By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
-----------------------------------------------------
Please show me where the "kings of the earth" designation relates directly to the People of God (ie. the Holy City of Zion/Jerusalem). As I look, most of the passage seem to talk about those who 1) are not of God's people who relate TO God's People and 2) OPPOSE God.
See what I'm saying, Selah?
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 11:29:31 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/12/2010 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | | OH OK GOOOOOD... NOW I SEE what you're saying! I had to read the parallel post...duh... Sorry!!!
Since this isn't dogma, I'm TOTALLLY willing to change my view. For the record: I"M OK WITH THE NATIONS AND KINGS BEING DISTINCT FROM THE BRIDE Still, you have to deal with Matthew 25:46 and the rev tormented forever and ever verse. Also, you have to deal with the BUT that's AFTER the kings and nations come in...and the "NOR ANYONE" and you have to deal WELL with those or I'm not buyin what you're sellin and admit you UR people misuse the "all" verses ...just cuz that would be nice 
Matthew 25:46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
Post Edited (selah) : 4/12/2010 11:39:31 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
For the record: I"M OK WITH THE NATIONS AND KINGS BEING DISTINCT FROM THE BRIDE.
Cool. Next, would you agree that the "kings of the earth" don't come into the "Bride" until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment? Here's the texts...
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The New Heaven and the New Earth
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem
9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
...
22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 12:05:11 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | | If you agree that the "kings of the earth" (who are DISTINCT from the Bride) do come into the the "Bride, the Wife of the Lamb" AFTER the "second death" has already happened...then where did they come FROM to go TO the "Bride"? Even symbolically, one would have to say they came from "OUTSIDE" the Holy City.
Where are the human beings who are "outside" the Holy City of the New Jerusalem, following the "second death"?
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 11:57:42 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/12/2010 1:48 PM (GMT -6) | |
I'm all ears Bruce. What would the 'nations' be a symbol of? What would their 'entering the city' be a symbol or metaphor of? It means SOMETHING. So what's it MEAN symbolically?
Tom
One Love said...Exactly, Tom. Well, Bruce?
I'm commenting on HOW it means something, and not WHAT it means.
Here's the "Kings of the Earth" on the Pentacost icon! It's NOt trying to enumerate each king, or identify each one by one. (remember how parable has one point and analogy many?)
Note the guy at the bottom holding the white cloth.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/12/2010 1:51 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Note:
In the center of the icon below the Apostles, a royal figure is seen against a dark background. This is a symbolic figure, Cosmos, representing the people of the world living in darkness and sin, and involved in pagan worship (7). However, the figure carries in his hands a cloth containing scrolls which represent the teaching of the Apostles (8). The tradition of the Church holds that the Apostles carried the message of the Gospel to all parts of the world.
www.goarch.org/.../pentecost/pentecost09.jpg
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 4:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm. Cool stuff, B.
So, Selah. Again...
If you agree that the "kings of the earth" (who are DISTINCT from the Bride) do come into the the "Bride, the Wife of the Lamb" AFTER the "second death" has already happened...then where did they come FROM to go TO the "Bride"? Even symbolically, one would have to say they came from "OUTSIDE" the Holy City.
Where are the human beings who are "outside" the Holy City of the New Jerusalem, following the "second death"?
Again, we are just LOOKING AT THE TEXT.
Come on, you Bethel-graduatin', MDiv-havin' Bible addict, you!!! 
This is ironic as hell, actually. If it wouldn't been for YOU in my life, Selah...I may well have dismissed the value of a high view of Scripture wholesale. Straight up. You KNOW how bad it got. Remember when I started to disbelieve in Satan, Scripture and all that? Remember how I almost became an atheist? How you HELPED ME with that? And now...here we are...in this discussion...
Wow. 
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/12/2010 4:40:37 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/12/2010 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/12/2010 9:55 PM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...Hmmm. Cool stuff, B. So, Selah. Again... If you agree that the "kings of the earth" (who are DISTINCT from the Bride) do come into the the "Bride, the Wife of the Lamb" AFTER the "second death" has already happened...then where did they come FROM to go TO the "Bride"? Even symbolically, one would have to say they came from "OUTSIDE" the Holy City. Where are the human beings who are "outside" the Holy City of the New Jerusalem, following the "second death"?Again, we are just LOOKING AT THE TEXT.
Come on, you Bethel-graduatin', MDiv-havin' Bible addict, you!!!
This is ironic as hell, actually. If it wouldn't been for YOU in my life, Selah...I may well have dismissed the value of a high view of Scripture wholesale. Straight up. You KNOW how bad it got. Remember when I started to disbelieve in Satan, Scripture and all that? Remember how I almost became an atheist? How you HELPED ME with that? And now...here we are...in this discussion...
Wow.
AW sweet friend of mine.. here's the thing. SINCE you came through all that, you gotta know that your enemy has a it in for you. He's the one who wanted you to dismiss scripture and disbelieve in him, right? Right! But you didnt. You decided to read, pray and press in...and that means God can use you! ...but it also means satan's gonna be pissed off and try try again.
So here's how I see it. I may be COMPLETELY WRONG...but at least for right now, this is where I'm at, ok?
Satan looks for opportune times to pull us into his traps (note the word - traps!) He knows our buttons...and he pushes them. I think he tries to get a "foothold" in any area of our life where he can push through the LIE that we are self-suffiecient or that we really are able to get worth from other sources instead of getting it from God alone. For me, he works his magic through my desire to be married or to provide a better life for my kids. I long for that, so from time to time he uses that to occupy my thoughts and to try to take me down. I think he uses your intellect against you at times too(and I think he does the same for Greg!). You get curious about something and once you make a discovery ... it begins to consume your thinking. Once you tell someone else and get kudos for your discovery...the battle is on. The more kudos the more you lock in on the discovery and lock out of being able to hear God about other things. It seems like you get energized by either a challenge (Greg too -look at how many recent sermons Greg uses the phrase "just try this on" and ask yourself "WHY does he do that?") or by the kudos that come when you have a new thought or discovery. That's when its easy for pride to get in where humility should be. (I tried to tell Greg that THAT's what "walk humbly...WITH your GOD" means in Micah.) There are some things we dont know... and we need to be careful because what we assert as true could be false. And we could unintentionally lead others astray with our well-constructed arguments . ANYway, I think Satan's system is always the same, he just tailors it to each of us because that's how it works best.
And that's why I dont wanna feed some of this stuff. I dont see how UR can be appropriated in everyday life and I dont feel that this particular argument is spirit led. If you've prayed about it and feel that it is, I apologize to you and God. I pray and dont get that.
My son's recent discovery: "mom, I think some people speak about God...and some people speak FOR God." We (as pastors especially) are to do the latter...1 peter 411If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. To me, everything else is meaningless - vanity vanity...
just 2 cents from the existentialist biblefreak
T
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
Post Edited (selah) : 4/12/2010 11:31:38 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/13/2010 1:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
Satan looks for opportune times to pull us into his traps (note the word - traps!) He knows our buttons...and he pushes them. I think he tries to get a "foothold" in any area of our life where he can push through the LIE that we are self-suffiecient or that we really are able to get worth from other sources instead of getting it from God alone. For me, he works his magic through my desire to be married or to provide a better life for my kids. I long for that, so from time to time he uses that to occupy my thoughts and to try to take me down. I think he uses your intellect against you at times too(and I think he does the same for Greg!). You get curious about something and once you make a discovery ... it begins to consume your thinking. Once you tell someone else and get kudos for your discovery...the battle is on. The more kudos the more you lock in on the discovery and lock out of being able to hear God about other things. It seems like you get energized by either a challenge (Greg too -look at how many recent sermons Greg uses the phrase "just try this on" and ask yourself "WHY does he do that?" or by the kudos that come when you have a new thought or discovery. That's when its easy for pride to get in where humility should be. (I tried to tell Greg that THAT's what "walk humbly...WITH your GOD" means in Micah.) There are some things we dont know... and we need to be careful because what we assert as true could be false. And we could unintentionally lead others astray with our well-constructed arguments . ANYway, I think Satan's system is always the same, he just tailors it to each of us because that's how it works best.
And that's why I dont wanna feed some of this stuff. I dont see how UR can be appropriated in everyday life and I dont feel that this particular argument is spirit led. If you've prayed about it and feel that it is, I apologize to you and God. I pray and dont get that.
Ok. I want to make sure that I have this straight. Because my mental activity can be (and is) a temptation for me, you don't want to "feed some of this stuff" by answering my honest questions?
Hmmm...that's too bad. I was really looking forward to your response.
You know what, Selah. THANK YOU. Thank you for showing me how this is gonna go. I'm sure that you are not the only person that will have this kind of stance. I will just respect that. Guess there's just nothing left to do. I guess I should be glad for what I did get...
"For the record: I'M OK WITH THE NATIONS AND KINGS BEING DISTINCT FROM THE BRIDE."
I guess one out of three ain't bad.*
At the same time...I gotta tell ya...this DISINCLINES me towards these kinds of biblically-oriented conversations with you. If this is the way it's going to end up, then we may as well not really DO the kind of biblical/theological work that our degrees allow for on these kinds of things. I'm not trying to be negative or ANYTHING like that...no way. It just seems to me that there are certain limitations in the way these conversations can be held with you...such that it will probably be better for you and I to just pray for one another's faith, praise God for it...and just leave it at that. So maybe when Aki and I visit in May, I'll just leave the Bible at home...and chill out with all y'all, instead of talking shop. Hey, good friends, food, and smoke is good enough.
Mad love to ya, sister. 
So...Tom. What do you think of all this here? Speak up.
---------------------------------------------------------------
*1) In Revelation 21:22-27, the "kings of the earth" and "nations" do not refer to anyone in the Redeemed "Bride, Wife of the Lamb", the "holy city Jerusalem." In other words, the "kings" and "nations" are not to be identified with the "holy city Jerusalem."
2) The fulfilment in Revelation 21 of what Isaiah 60 anticipates (ie. conquered "kings" and "nations" bringing their glory into God's Holy City) occurs AFTER the White Throne Judgement and the "second death" in Revelation 20:7-15.
3) Given 1 and 2, it is reasonable to surmise that the "kings of the earth" and "nations" who are coming into the "holy city Jerusalem" (in Revelation 21:22-27) are coming from the "lake of fire", which would be the only other "location" of any human beings at that time.
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/13/2010 2:15:51 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/13/2010 3:22 AM (GMT -6) | | | Ok, yo. Just really trying to look at this. Just my interpretation of this situation...
First, I'm talking about the prayer, acquisition of the Holy Spirit, the Uncreated Light, theoria...all that...and this gets said...
| Posted By : selah - 4/9/2010 11:54 PM |
D - all your stuff on the holy spirit is spot on. If you're called to give a message on that someday, send me a message and i'll be sure to pray for you
|
So, all is gravy at that point.
But after the universalism-type stuff comes up, something begins to change...
| Posted By : selah - 4/10/2010 7:41 PM |
|
Hey Tom and D.
Did you guys watch Chan before making comments about what Cornerstone church believes? If not, you really should. That guys character,walk with the Lord, and humility are obvious... and besides that he's a brother. You should hear his testimony. If his life story doesn't convince you that he'd be a guy god would use big-time, I dont know what would...
Anyway, I'm sure Chan is OK if you disagree with some of his theology. People disagree wtih mine and I'm fine with that. They're just beliefs! I hold them ...but I make sure I hold the non-dogma ones loosely. If I didnt, I might become prideful - especially if MY view were to go against tradition. I mean how can I NOT get life from that? I mean i have THE view!
...sound familiar??
So regarding your perspective on hell. What convinces me most that you guys are wrong is the prideful way you talk about how right you are. Maybe that's something to think about. No matter how you slice it, hell (ECT)is the traditional view ... which means ... people just as 'smart' (maybe smarter) and holy (maybe holier) as you guys believe different from you. That's how I see Chan's churches beliefs. They are just as valid as mine or yours...aren't they?
Now say someone calls me out on a character issue, that's when I stop everything and get back to work on "the inside of the cup." Knowledge wont matter in the end... at least in my view it wont. Loving our brothers and sisters just as we would want to be loved will matter. |
Hmmmm...
| Posted By : selah - Yesterday 11:08 AM |
| Ok I think that the nations and kings of the earth ARE the same as the redeemed Bride. Those words are just pointing out that nations and kings will be going in/redeemed. You have to deal with the CENTRAL THEME in scripture that SOME names are written in the lambs book and some are not. Some are goats some are sheep ...some are wheat and some are chaff...to save your life you have to lose it. etc etc... This means something. Matthew 25:46 means something (Matthew 25:46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.")
Yep, every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but the whole "project' of freely chosen love blows up if God forces EVERYone to live eternally with him at some point.
Also, I think you take that "all things" verse out of context D. ALL things are NOT possible with God, really. I mean if that were so, GOD COULD LIE, right? UR people misuse that whole 'all" concept a lot!
how's that :)
selah |
| Posted By : selah - Yesterday 12:36 PM |
| OH OK GOOOOOD... NOW I SEE what you're saying! I had to read the parallel post...duh... Sorry!!!
Since this isn't dogma, I'm TOTALLLY willing to change my view. For the record: I"M OK WITH THE NATIONS AND KINGS BEING DISTINCT FROM THE BRIDE Still, you have to deal with Matthew 25:46 and the rev tormented forever and ever verse. Also, you have to deal with the BUT that's AFTER the kings and nations come in...and the "NOR ANYONE" and you have to deal WELL with those or I'm not buyin what you're sellin and admit you UR people misuse the "all" verses ...just cuz that would be nice |
| Posted By : selah - Yesterday 10:55 PM |
One Love said...Hmmm. Cool stuff, B. So, Selah. Again... If you agree that the "kings of the earth" (who are DISTINCT from the Bride) do come into the the "Bride, the Wife of the Lamb" AFTER the "second death" has already happened...then where did they come FROM to go TO the "Bride"? Even symbolically, one would have to say they came from "OUTSIDE" the Holy City. Where are the human beings who are "outside" the Holy City of the New Jerusalem, following the "second death"?Again, we are just LOOKING AT THE TEXT.
Come on, you Bethel-graduatin', MDiv-havin' Bible addict, you!!!
This is ironic as hell, actually. If it wouldn't been for YOU in my life, Selah...I may well have dismissed the value of a high view of Scripture wholesale. Straight up. You KNOW how bad it got. Remember when I started to disbelieve in Satan, Scripture and all that? Remember how I almost became an atheist? How you HELPED ME with that? And now...here we are...in this discussion...
Wow.
AW sweet friend of mine.. here's the thing. SINCE you came through all that, you gotta know that your enemy has a it in for you. He's the one who wanted you to dismiss scripture and disbelieve in him, right? Right! But you didnt. You decided to read, pray and press in...and that means God can use you! ...but it also means satan's gonna be pissed off and try try again.
So here's how I see it. I may be COMPLETELY WRONG...but at least for right now, this is where I'm at, ok?
Satan looks for opportune times to pull us into his traps (note the word - traps!) He knows our buttons...and he pushes them. I think he tries to get a "foothold" in any area of our life where he can push through the LIE that we are self-suffiecient or that we really are able to get worth from other sources instead of getting it from God alone. For me, he works his magic through my desire to be married or to provide a better life for my kids. I long for that, so from time to time he uses that to occupy my thoughts and to try to take me down. I think he uses your intellect against you at times too(and I think he does the same for Greg!). You get curious about something and once you make a discovery ... it begins to consume your thinking. Once you tell someone else and get kudos for your discovery...the battle is on. The more kudos the more you lock in on the discovery and lock out of being able to hear God about other things. It seems like you get energized by either a challenge (Greg too -look at how many recent sermons Greg uses the phrase "just try this on" and ask yourself "WHY does he do that?") or by the kudos that come when you have a new thought or discovery. That's when its easy for pride to get in where humility should be. (I tried to tell Greg that THAT's what "walk humbly...WITH your GOD" means in Micah.) There are some things we dont know... and we need to be careful because what we assert as true could be false. And we could unintentionally lead others astray with our well-constructed arguments . ANYway, I think Satan's system is always the same, he just tailors it to each of us because that's how it works best.
And that's why I dont wanna feed some of this stuff. I dont see how UR can be appropriated in everyday life and I dont feel that this particular argument is spirit led. If you've prayed about it and feel that it is, I apologize to you and God. I pray and dont get that.
My son's recent discovery: "mom, I think some people speak about God...and some people speak FOR God." We (as pastors especially) are to do the latter...1 peter 411If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. To me, everything else is meaningless - vanity vanity...
just 2 cents from the existentialist biblefreak
T
|
All I can be like is...
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/13/2010 4:22:50 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/13/2010 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/13/2010 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, I heard Selah's making Goulash for din-din next month when we crash her place, so there might not be much time to open up the Word, the food will be too good! Hehe.
I haven't read every word, so I might be missing stuff. But this seems to be how things go every time we get into UR with Princess Selah. It's not good or bad, I'm just saying, this is usually what happens. I don't exactly know why. The conversation gets stuck real quick, and usually over stuff that hasn't anything to do with the text itself. It's how UR makes a person feel--the rationale for it, the motivation for it, etc., that becomes the issue.
I totally agree that there's a LOT of pride that gets attached to academia and professionals can misrelate to their own viewpoints. But this goes for ALL sides (UR and non-UR, open and non-open, Calvinist, Arminian, SK lovers and SK-haters, hehe), so its no argument against UR that human beings often proud in what they do. Theists in general can be proud at having supposedly air-tight arguments for God. Dudn't make the arguments bad. They might be right and good.
Maybe people should decide whether a thread/discussion is going to focus on the TEXT or on other non-textual (social, emotional, ecclesial/historical, logical, whatever). If it's about the TEXT, then discuss the text--pro's and con's, and leave it at that.
But if Selah says she doesn't see how UR can be appropriated in everyday life and that after prayer she doesn't feel this particular argument is Spirit-led, then that's that. There's nothing to do but shut it down.
There has to be a humble way to be universalist, yo!
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTA | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/13/2010 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
| 194 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 10:28 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|