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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/13/2010 10:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom:
Selah, there IS NO "BUT" where you're putting one. It's "kai" ("and" in Greek. Just a conjunction: "And nothing unclean will enter it...etc." But there's no big deal here either way. John's just contrasting the character/morality of those inside with those outside and emphasizing the fact that entrance into the city is based upon this difference.
| Posted By : One Love - 4/11/2010 9:36 AM |
Selah:
Look at your own clip...see what YOU highlighted? Now read and deal with the last sentence. Ask yourself "what are the presuppositions here?" come on....
"nor anyone who does what is detestable or false - but only those who are written in the Lambs book of life" - who are those who do things detestable or false? Where are they if they're never to enter the city?
You have to deal with the whole text. If there's ONE person whose name isn't written in the Lambs book of life - who wont be entering - ever! Then we have a problem with universal reconciliation. See how silly this stuff is?
Yeah. I anticipated this thought. Let's REALLY look at the text. What does it say? As I see it, all it really says is this:
"Anyone who enters the New Jerusalem 1) doesn't do what is destable and false and 2)has their name in the Lamb's book of life."
Basically, it's saying that the "kings" and "nations" who are coming into the New Jerusalem from OUTSIDE OF IT are truly DEFEATED, ie. they are now willing to SERVE God and His People. |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/13/2010 10:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/13/2010 10:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/13/2010 11:38 PM (GMT -6) | | My take on the "nations" within the context of Isaiah 60 and Revelation 20-22.
First, Isaiah chapters 60-66 speak more theological than literally or chronologically. Let's look at Isaiah 60-66. In context of the New City, Isaiah notes waters and seas, which, in Revelation 20-22, do not exist in the age of the new heaven and earth. It is also interesting that Isaiah says that foreigners will build the City. Further, Isaiah notes the destruction of nations who do not serve God and His people.
For the coastlands shall hope for me, the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your children from afar, their silver and gold with them, for the name of the LORD your God, and for the Holy One of Israel, because he has made you beautiful. Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you; for in my wrath I struck you, but in my favor I have had mercy on you. Your gates shall be open continually; day and night they shall not be shut, that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste. (Is 60:9-12)
and (regarding those nations that will perish and the existence of death)
"For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Is 66:22-24)
Isaiah sees limited lifetime, and population growth into what becomes nations.
The least one shall become a clan, and the smallest one a mighty nation; I am the LORD; in its time I will hasten it. (Is. 60:22)
and
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness. I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them. (Is 65:17-23)
Isaiah has left us with much to consider about the new kingdom to come: nations, some who perish; and birth and limited life spans.
Before moving to Revelation, let’s look at Matthew 25 first. There are at least three main issues to note that are tantamount to understanding the “nations” in Revelation 20-22.
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:31-46)
As you probably know, this passage has been a stumbling block in eschatological thinking. The first problem is this: If Christ sets up this judgment throne immediately after His second coming, who’s left to cause problems after the millennium? Second, who are the sheep who do good unto Christ’s “brethren”? Are they Christians, Israel, Gentiles, a mix? And third, there is the difficulty of making sense of the timing of this judgment in view of the finality of all disturbances to the kingdom of God by use of “eternal damnation” and “eternal life” language.
In considering Revelation 20-22, and the Matthew 25 text itself, I do not believe this judgment must take place immediately after Christ’s second coming. Christ is not necessarily speaking chronologically; that is, He simply stated that after He has returned and His throne is set up, He will judge the nations. When exactly this takes place after He returns, though, is of importance in helping to understand the “nations” of Revelation 20-22. Let’s go now to Revelation.
Before talking about the nations, let’s look at the issue of the Bride of Christ. Here are the references in the Book of Revelation with regard to the bride of Christ.
(Rev 19:7) Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
(Rev 21:2) And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(Rev 21:9) Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
(Rev 22:17) The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
No less theological than Isaiah, the concept of the bride in Revelation is theologically rich and much more than just a reference to Christians or the Church. To understand what’s going on here in Revelation, we have to go back briefly to Isaiah again.
For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not be quiet, until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, and her salvation as a burning torch. The nations shall see your righteousness, and all the kings your glory, and you shall be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will give. You shall be a crown of beauty in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God. You shall no more be termed Forsaken, and your land shall no more be termed Desolate, but you shall be called My Delight Is in Her, and your land Married; for the LORD delights in you, and your land shall be married. For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have set watchmen; all the day and all the night they shall never be silent. You who put the LORD in remembrance, take no rest, and give him no rest until he establishes Jerusalem and makes it a praise in the earth. The LORD has sworn by his right hand and by his mighty arm: "I will not again give your grain to be food for your enemies, and foreigners shall not drink your wine for which you have labored; but those who garner it shall eat it and praise the LORD, and those who gather it shall drink it in the courts of my sanctuary." Go through, go through the gates; prepare the way for the people; build up, build up the highway; clear it of stones; lift up a signal over the peoples. Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion, "Behold, your salvation comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him." And they shall be called The Holy People, The Redeemed of the LORD; and you shall be called Sought Out, A City Not Forsaken. (Is 62:1-12)
For Isaiah, the Israel of God are the offspring who are born out of the marriage of Jehovah and the New Jerusalem. The peoples that inhabit this City are not the bride but reflection of its glory. The care God has for, and the treatment He will show to, Israel is the same He will show to His people. For Isaiah, there is no people of God without Jerusalem, the City of God. The same thing theology is communicated in Revelation.
In Revelation 19 we read the first reference to the bride of Christ.
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God." (Rev 19:7-9)
This proclamation is expressed just before the second coming of Christ. Many are too quick to equate the “bride” with the Church, however, because of the mention of “the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.” Perhaps a question we should ask is, if the bride is solely the Church, when is the actual wedding day?
The next two references to the Bride are in Revelation 21:2-9
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God . . .” (Rev 21:2-10)
Chronologically, these verses are given to us after Christ has defeated His enemies at His second coming, after He has conducted the Great White Throne Judgment, and after God has created a new heaven, a new earth and a new Jerusalem. Theologically, these verses are given to us in the same context as Isaiah 61. It is the New Jerusalem that is the bride, the wife of Jehovah, who’s offspring, the nations, are included as His people. The walls of the City in Revelation are marked with the 12 tribes of Israel, and nations coming in and out of it, again reinforcing the idea of city, people and offspring.
Though the bride had made herself ready just before Jesus’ second coming, the marriage isn’t until after the millennium. Why is this? Because when we see that the bride is equated to the New Jerusalem, we can appreciate the existence of the pre-New Jerusalem; the city which Jesus will rule from immediately after His second coming. This is as woven into those last chapters of Isaiah as is a new Jerusalem and a new heaven and earth. It isn’t until the New Jerusalem is fully established that the bride is married—the land is married to Jehovah, which is a beautiful, theological way of saying “ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.”
At this point, there is a specific detail we need to note.
In Revelation 20, Satan is bound for a thousand years. We are then told, And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:7-10)
In Ezekiel 38, Gog and Magog are not found in the four corners of the world. But in Revelation, John theologically applies the Gog/Magog concept of those in opposition to God—the nations—as having populated and encompassed the whole world. But the key here is that we do not have to conclude that all of the nations have fallen into Satan’s deception. There’s simply no reason to believe that absolutely everyone around the world at this time will oppose Christ. That’s not John’s point. All we see is a repopulated earth, some of whom are going to rebel.
First, what happens to those who rebelled, who are judged by fire? The Great White Throne judgment has already taken place! Is there no White Throne Judgment for them? Apparently not. We are simply told that they are thrown into the lake of fire. But why no White Throne Judgment for them? Most likely because the Great White Throne judgment addresses those who have lived and died. Those who are alive and remain unto Christ’s coming are those who will repopulate the earth, needing no judgment…as of yet!
The next question is what about those who didn’t rebel? We can deduce that they are clearly seen as those nations who will walk, bringing their glory with them, in and out of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:24-26), who will eat from the Tree of Life and be healed (Rev 22:2), and who are ultimately washed in the blood of the lamb (Rev 22:14). And here is where the puzzles of that judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 are solved!
The judgment of Matthew 25, then, is not immediately after Christ’s second coming, because it would be impossible for the remaining events John recorded in Revelation 20 to take place. This means that in Matthew 25, Jesus was simply mentioning a time when He would judge the nations, the righteous and the unrighteous. He wasn’t implying it would immediately after He arrives on earth. The language of “throne” even points to a time well after His arrival.
The most appropriate time frame, then, for the Matthew 25 judgment is either the Great White Throne Judgment or the judgment of fire upon the rebellious Gog/Magog nations. Either way, we are left with a clear identity of the nations who roam about the New Jerusalem. They are those who are His people, His sheep, His righteous ones who are to receive everlasting life.
These nations have not experienced a resurrection (as of yet), and they apparently do not experience death. They do, however, have to be washed in the blood of the lamb if they are to eat of the Tree of Life, as we saw above. Clearly, then, they are to become Christians. From Matthew 25, it would seem that at the time they are appointed to their inheritance, they are then redeemed—“Enter into the inheritance [eternal life] appointed for you”. This would mean that at some time they receive resurrected bodies. We are not told specifically when, however.
Finally, the last reference to the bride of Christ is Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
We see in full swing the Bride, the Groom and the Offspring: Jehovah, the Bride (the New Jerusalem, made up of apostles, prophets and redeemed believers), giving the call to the nations (the offspring). All is complete now.
To close, what I do not believe is found in any of what we have studied here is anything relative to universal salvation. References to outside the New Jerusalem does not take us to anything but more of the new world, not to a place where those who practiced witchcraft, sorcery, lying, etc., are found. That nothing evil will ever enter the city is to say that the old is gone for good and, thus, can never encroach upon the new—there is no meaning here of the redemption of souls coming out of the lake of fire. This is not to deny UR, it is to say only that it is not the issue here in Revelation 20-22.
Thanks,
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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| Posted 4/13/2010 11:40 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hey kids, just for the record... THIS is what started the pride conversatio. I'm fine with you misquoting me (tom) and I'm fine with you (dwayne) gathering paul and greg around you to laugh about my/others lower understanding of Hell or whatever... but I dont think its ok to cut others down in order to build yourselves up. That's what I mean by "pride." And that's what I was commenting on when this whole thing started. It has nothing to do with Universalism. Knowledge (or perceived knowledge) puffs up. This post is a little evidence of how that works...and there are many posts after this one that have the same tone.
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Tom said...
Tom: See what Chan has on his "What we believe" section?
D: "In the resurrection of both those who believe in Jesus and those who do not believe: those believing to eternal life with Christ and those unbelieving to eternal punishment in hell."
Hey...can't win 'em all.
Tom: I bet he thinks that God's NOT in poop!
Hehe.
T
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Why would anyone pull out "what chan has on his "what we believe" section of the church website" in response to the beautiful, humble sermon clip I posted? Why would anyone say "can't win em all" unless they believe they have something others dont have?
I'm sure Chan and Chan's church came to their conclusions regarding Hell through very much the same means as you two. They likely studied it and prayed about it....a lot. Why is it that that's not being instantly regarded? How are your comments "loving them as you love yourselves." I dont get it..
Anyway,THIS post - NOT THE TOPIC of universalism is what changed my mood. Look back! If you can't see that you've done this kind of thing throughout the entire thread, I'm hoping you'll come back and reread it in a couple years and see how puffed up you sound. You even threw a "cut" my way by throwing in the "poop" comment. To me, there's a lot of "thinking more highly of yourselves than you ought" going on here....and it keeps getting worse! Bottom line: there was no reason to cut down Chan's church or his beliefs...or me. That's what people do when they want to feel superior...
Finally, I REALLY DO love you guys. I WOULD NOT tell you this if I didnt. I really think is the kind of love we need more of in the church. The kind of love that speaks truth - even when its easier to stay silent. When you guys push back, I TAKE IT TO HEART. I VALUE what you have to say - even if (especially if) I dont want to hear it. Why? Because I might possibly benefit from examining myself.
I'm ok agreeing to disagree at this point. Much love and no hard feelings,
Selah
Ps d - I dont care what greg thinks on this topic. I was there for the sermon you posted and my only thought afterwards was "what a misuse of the pulpit!" I know we can differ on this, but I (personally) believe the pulpit should be a place for preaching. Its there to edify and bring a word from GOD to HIS Body. It's not there to "try things on" or for personal thought projects. Again, that's just my opinion...others may disagree. Just like with the topic of UR, I'm open to be proven wrong....because I'm not going to get life or worth from my opinion.
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
Post Edited (selah) : 4/17/2010 8:31:04 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/14/2010 6:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Naw, Selah. The Poop comment was a total joke! Just poking fun. Come on Sis, now, that wudn't pride!
Smiling,
Tom
Stark,
More later when I have time, but I obvious will disagree. The New Jerusalem IS the people of God, the totality of the redeemed new order. It can't be LEFT/EXITED, though (as the text says), its gates are never closed (never "locked" is the more accurate I believe), and people to ENTER it.
Gotta run.
KIXYTΘEMTA | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 4/14/2010 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
But how about Rev. 5:8-14 for explicit? I don’t see any ambiguity about the universal scope of John’s vision:
First off let me say that I agree with Selah about D being “spot on” with regards to his HS posts. Also, kudos to him on all of his great contributions made in regards to breaking down self-idolatry, dying to self, etc. Actually, I thought this thread was going to be more in line with that, as in, our true identity in Christ and how man can fall prey to false-self and self-idolatry in contrary to “Man According to God’s View”. It’s all great stuff, Hopko, Loder, Chan and others, I find it all fascinating to read and listen to. Thanks. Unfortunately, all this collapses when you juxtapose it to UR. And that’s what makes it so baffling when you can’t see the ostentation of your UR arguments.
For some reason, when I read some of yours and D's UR stuff, I can’t stop the echo of Carly Simon singing in my ear, “you're so vain, you probably think this verse is about you you're so vain, I'll bet you think this verse is about you Don't you? Don't You? ” Seriously, WHO do you think Revelation 5 is about? (for that matter, from Genesis to Revelation, WHO do you think the Holy Bible is all about?) I must say, It does take a level of arrogance to read Rev 5:8-14 and project man as the focus in any way shape or form. . The humble at heart should clearly see WHO the focus ought to be directed towards. Here in Revelation, John is drawing a symbolic line across the universe and placing God and the Lamb on one side, and ALL of creation on the other. John’s objective is NOT to show salvific or intrinsic value to any given creature, no, it’s all about the glorious scene before the throne of God in heaven, where ALL creatures throughout ALL creation bow down, worshipping, giving praise and glory to God and the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The sole focus is exclusively on God.
Yes, it’s doxology, praise and worship that is offered by ALL CREATION to God and the Lamb together. Worthy is the LORD! Worthy is the Lamb! All creatures in their way praise God, and are subservient to the glory and interest of Christ, and are the occasion of glorifying of both; and even the enemies of Christ, wicked men and devils, will be obliged to own Christ to be Lord, to the glory of God the Father, as well as angels and saints; and the same glory and honor which are given to the one are ascribed to the other, which shows the proper deity of Christ, and his equality with the Father.
Peace out,
Mark Post Edited (Truth Aficionado) : 4/14/2010 8:29:18 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/14/2010 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
and I'm fine with you (dwayne) gathering paul and greg around you to laugh about my/others lower understanding of Hell or whatever... but I dont think its ok to cut others down in order to build yourselves up. That's pride.
AND...
Why would anyone pull out "what chan has on his "what we believe" section of the church website" in response to the beautiful, humble sermon clip I posted? Why would anyone say "can't win em all" unless they believe they have something others dont have?
Ok, sister. That's enough. That's all I'm willing to take of this. Seriously. I'm saying this respectfully and in straight up love. All of the different thoughts that you are projecting onto me are NOT accurate...at all. Let me give two examples: 1) I am NOT trying to gather Paul and Greg together so we can do something as INFANTILE as laughing at other people. There is a lot more important work to do! 2) I have to echo Tom's feelings about Chan. Just think with me a while, Selah. Would have taken all the time to look through all of Chan's stuff like that...AND be willing to BUY the book...if I didn't like him? Would I have been able to give that little summary you wanted within 2 minutes of your asking post...if I really didn't LISTEN and APPRECIATE his message? Would I have mentioned the "Prayer Americans are Afraid to Pray"? Nope. It is very clear that ECT IS important to Chan...and to that degree, we differ. (Hence, my playful "can't win 'em all." ) But personally I think Chan is a crucial aspect of the Body that we NEED. I really do believe that. I respect him highly. So... I love you, sister. But the level of stuff that you are saying about me is bordering on abusive...and out of respect for myself, I just cannot allow it to continue. If you have a real character beef with me, I'm all ears. But please stop saying things like you did above. I'm ASKING you...please. As your FRIEND, I'm asking you to stop. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner... Thanks, sis. I figured this response wouldn't be as passive. Dwayne 
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/14/2010 8:34:35 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/14/2010 8:38 AM (GMT -6) | | T.A.:
For some reason, when I read some of yours and D's UR stuff, I can’t stop the echo of Carly Simon singing in my ear, “you're so vain, you probably think this verse is about you you're so vain, I'll bet you think this verse is about you Don't you? Don't You? ” Seriously, WHO do you think Revelation 5 is about? (for that matter, from Genesis to Revelation, WHO do you think the Holy Bible is all about?) I must say, It does take a level of arrogance to read Rev 5:8-14 and project man as the focus in any way shape or form. . The humble at heart should clearly see WHO the focus ought to be directed towards.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Please, Jesus. Deliver me. Lord Jesus...
The Lord bless you, T.A. I really can't say much else.
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Tom
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| Posted 4/14/2010 9:34 AM (GMT -6) | | TA: False humility and pride are each one side of the same coin. In both cases the focus in on self. We all, my self included, suffer from both.
Tom: I'm sure we all suffer from both to a degree. Fine. Do you think this falsifies our arguments FOR UR? But if you and Selah suffer from the same pride, then wouldn't your pride falsify your reasons for not believing UR? In fact, since we all suffer from pride, wouldn't our pride falsify ALL our beliefs about EVERYTHING?
My point is to ask the question: What's the fact that we all struggle with our falleness in terms of pride got to do with these arguments for and against UR?
If the focus of our arguments has been on self, then yeah, that would actually demonstrate an inappropriate pride I suppose. But our arguments haven't focused on self. They've focused on the text, on language, grammar, God, etc.
I'm thinking this WHOLE pride and arrogance is a smoke screen. If ya'll don't wanna discuss UR with us, just say so. But it's unhelpful to say our pride and arrogance are why you don't or can't discuss things.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 4/14/2010 10:21:50 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 4/14/2010 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman,
I’m not sure I follow you entirely. I got a bit lost here and there. Could you boil it down to 4 or 5 bullets?
But I’ll just comment a bit on this:
Stark: To close, what I do not believe is found in any of what we have studied here is anything relative to universal salvation. References to outside the New Jerusalem does not take us to anything but more of the new world, not to a place where those who practiced witchcraft, sorcery, lying, etc., are found. That nothing evil will ever enter the city is to say that the old is gone for good and, thus, can never encroach upon the new…
Tom: Then it looks to me like you’re saying Revelation DOES have something relative to say about universal salvation, namely, that it will not occur. It can’t be the case that those in the Lake of Fire “are gone for good and thus can never encroach upon the new…” and that this has no relevance for universalism. If any are “gone for good” then universalism is false, and that’s pretty relevant to universalism.
I’m having a difficult time seeing the mention of nations bringing their glory into the city through the gates as meaning the righteous are ‘roaming around the city’ and not actually ‘entering’ it because there really is no outside the city to speak of.
Tom
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One Love
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| Posted 4/14/2010 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | | Tom, I'm thinking that Starky is taking the "City" language LITERALLY. He doesn't believe that John's "Bride" ONLY represent's Christ's Bride, the Church. I think he's talking about a quasi-destruction and REPOPULATION of the Earth by human beings, such that the "kings" and "nations" entering the city in Revelation 21 refer to the REPOPULATED humans coming in into the City as "offspring"...not to any people in the lake of fire.
Am I right, Starky? I may be missing you myself. Some quotes...
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Chronologically, these verses are given to us after Christ has defeated His enemies at His second coming, after He has conducted the Great White Throne Judgment, and after God has created a new heaven, a new earth and a new Jerusalem. Theologically, these verses are given to us in the same context as Isaiah 61. It is the New Jerusalem that is the bride, the wife of Jehovah, who’s offspring, the nations, are included as His people. The walls of the City in Revelation are marked with the 12 tribes of Israel, and nations coming in and out of it, again reinforcing the idea of city, people and offspring.
Though the bride had made herself ready just before Jesus’ second coming, the marriage isn’t until after the millennium. Why is this? Because when we see that the bride is equated to the New Jerusalem, we can appreciate the existence of the pre-New Jerusalem; the city which Jesus will rule from immediately after His second coming. This is as woven into those last chapters of Isaiah as is a new Jerusalem and a new heaven and earth. It isn’t until the New Jerusalem is fully established that the bride is married—the land is married to Jehovah, which is a beautiful, theological way of saying “ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.”
...
In Ezekiel 38, Gog and Magog are not found in the four corners of the world. But in Revelation, John theologically applies the Gog/Magog concept of those in opposition to God—the nations—as having populated and encompassed the whole world. But the key here is that we do not have to conclude that all of the nations have fallen into Satan’s deception. There’s simply no reason to believe that absolutely everyone around the world at this time will oppose Christ. That’s not John’s point. All we see is a repopulated earth, some of whom are going to rebel.
First, what happens to those who rebelled, who are judged by fire? The Great White Throne judgment has already taken place! Is there no White Throne Judgment for them? Apparently not. We are simply told that they are thrown into the lake of fire. But why no White Throne Judgment for them? Most likely because the Great White Throne judgment addresses those who have lived and died. Those who are alive and remain unto Christ’s coming are those who will repopulate the earth, needing no judgment…as of yet!
The next question is what about those who didn’t rebel? We can deduce that they are clearly seen as those nations who will walk, bringing their glory with them, in and out of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:24-26), who will eat from the Tree of Life and be healed (Rev 22:2), and who are ultimately washed in the blood of the lamb (Rev 22:14). And here is where the puzzles of that judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 are solved!
Post Edited (One Love) : 4/14/2010 10:09:49 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 4/14/2010 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | |
Tom said...
If the focus of our arguments has been on self, then yeah, that would actually demonstrate an inappropriate pride I suppose. But our arguments haven't focused on self. They've focused on the text, on language, grammar, God, etc.
Tom, I believe my post from 8:13am addresses the issue of self and how it’s directly tied to your UR arguments.
Smoke Screen?  Post Edited (Truth Aficionado) : 4/14/2010 10:18:52 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/14/2010 10:16 AM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...
Have you seen an significant amount of false humility in Tom and me, T.A.?
My comment on false humility is a maxim for all of us.
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Tom
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| Posted 4/14/2010 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Mark: Seriously, WHO do you think Revelation 5 is about? (for that matter, from Genesis to Revelation, WHO do you think the Holy Bible is all about?) I must say, It does take a level of arrogance to read Rev 5:8-14 and project man as the focus in any way shape or form.
Tom: I got stop you right there Mark ‘cause you are WAY out a line. You don’t know me, know my heart, seeing inside of me or my motivation or anything close to it. So just take a seat and turn your afterburners down. I didn’t project man as the focus of Rev. 5.8-12 as you think. God’s the focus, of course. All I did was disquote John’s own words. Again, I believe all creatures in heaven and earth will worship God.
Listen up Mark, this is not making man the focus. It’s making God the focus of all living creatures. It’s saying God will ultimately be recognized as the focus the way he deserves to be.
Mark: Here in Revelation, John is drawing a symbolic line across the universe and placing God and the Lamb on one side, and ALL of creation on the other.
Tom: Fine. So…?
Mark: John’s objective is NOT to show salvific or intrinsic value to any given creature…
Tom: Who the hell is giving “intrinsic value” to any creature, Mark? All D and I have done for several years now is shout from the roof tops that creatures DERIVE their existence and value from God’s unconditional love and notice of them. God is the supreme value and the only value we have is what God decides we mean to him. It’s not denial of this to believe that all creation will one day recognize this and render to God the worship God deserves.
Mark: It’s all about the glorious scene before the throne of God in heaven, where ALL creatures throughout ALL creation bow down, worshipping, giving praise and glory to God and the Lamb, Jesus Christ.
Tom: That’s called universalism, Mark.
Mark: All creatures in their way praise God, and are subservient to the glory and interest of Christ, and are the occasion of glorifying of both; and even the enemies of Christ, wicked men and devils, will be obliged to own Christ to be Lord, to the glory of God the Father…
Tom: Except the text doesn’t say that. You can read it that way if you want. To me you’re just accommodating the passage to an already determined rejection of UR. Fine. I won’t accuse you of arrogance for handling the text this way. But there’s no argument here from the text. The Elders join all creatures in their worship with a hearty “Amen,” hardly a vision of the Elders saying “Amen” to the particular way that Satan in his evil state praises and worships God.
Read it how you want. But you’re wrong to accuse me of arrogantly making man the focus of the passage. That’s low.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 4/14/2010 10:45:04 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 4/14/2010 10:23 AM (GMT -6) | | D: Tom, I'm thinking that Starky is taking the "City" language LITERALLY. He doesn't believe that John's "Bride" ONLY represent's Christ's Bride, the Church. I think he's talking about a quasi-destruction and REPOPULATION of the Earth by human beings, such that the "kings" and "nations" entering the city in Revelation 21 refer to the REPOPULATED humans coming in into the City as "offspring"...not to any people in the lake of fire.
T: Does that work well with you, D, about how John tracks the nations in Revelation? In ch. 19 the nations and kings are hurled into the flames. So Starky thinks THOSE kings remain there and that the kings/nations of 21 are new/different kings/nations who have repopulated the earth?
Whatever. I tell ya, when it comes to Revelation and appocalyptic literature, it's like anything goes. There is such a diversity of views. But tell me, how's one pick out JUST the universalistic views as being the only arrogant ones?
I'm 'bout fed up with this "You're arrogant" line. I joke, I'm arrogant. I don't joke, I'm arrogant. John says "all creatures worship God and the Elders say 'Amen!'" and I read that as meaning all creatures offer the HEARTFELT sort of worship God DESERVES, all creatures MAKE GOD THEIR FOCUS, and I'm arrogantly projecting a mancenterdness into John's words. But Mark says the passage means the all the evil creatures of the world REMAIN EVIL but nevertheless yield up a praise to God "in their own way" in spite of being evil and THAT'S properly making God the focus. Go figure.
And if I try to reassure folks that I'm not arrogantly claiming to have absolute certainty about UR by saying, "Sure, I could be wrong; I'm holding on to this losely," THEN I'm just evidencing false humility.
Can't win this one Bro. There's nothing you could say or do to demonstrate good faith here. We're screwed.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTA Post Edited (Tom) : 4/14/2010 10:43:34 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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