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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/20/2010 9:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Hey, if y'all like...let's read and discuss this one. It's pretty short, and I think it's important. I truly believe that sister Selah is on point about the urgency and importance of "guarding the mind" of pride...and seeking humility. It's the sine qua non of Christlikeness.
Anyways, we can go chapter by chapter or whatever. However!
Tom, it ain't optional for you, dawg. I wanna talk to you about it next time we hook up. 
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/20/2010 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | I'll start. Reading the intro and first 2 chapters, I couldn't help thinking about this...
| Contrition before God and the need for not depending upon our piety and our strength:
Father Moses (St. Moses the Black) increased in piety and in the struggle with himself to a great extent; but in spite of these desperate measures, the vigilance and the defeat of the self, he could not avoid imagining the lustful ghosts that were intensified as his struggle increased. His additional abstentions were probably without the permission of his spiritual mentor, for when he went to him to complain about his situation, he said to him, "My son, stop fighting the devils for the human being's strength has its limits. However, if God does not have mercy upon you and He alone gives victory over them, you will never overpower them. Go now and submit yourself to God with repentance before Him. Persevere in humility, He will have mercy upon you." Moses answered,
"I trust in God in whom I have placed all my hope that I be constantly armed against the devils, and never stop fighting them until they depart from me."
When St. Isidorus saw this faith in him, he said, "And I also believe in my Lord Jesus Christ, and in the name of Jesus Christ, from this moment the devils will stop fighting you." He added, "Go to the Holy church and partake of the Holy Sacraments." St. Moses continued to do as the Elder had said with perseverance, and God gave him a great blessing, humility and serenity. The power of thought came upon him, and from that moment Moses lived in peace and grew in wisdom.
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He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God? |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/20/2010 10:24 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/20/2010 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/20/2010 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo...
Look at Chapter 5...and compare/contrast that with what you know of contemporary American evangelical activism and moralism.
Interesting, huh? 
Hmmm...Here's an idea.
If we took the evangelical "crucicentricism" (basically the Cross of Christ as the central redemptive act of God)...and we expanded the idea. Instead of merely focusing on atonement, expiation, and such things...we could look at the Cross of Christ as the indisputable demonstration of the nature of God and humanity which IS redemptive for us. The kenotic, loving HUMILITY seen in the Cross of Christ is what makes all the other stuff possible. IF this happens, then being truly "crucicentric" would be inseparable from centering on the humility of God seen in the "Emptiness of Christ"...and this would influence the other 3 factors of evangelicalism. (biblicism, conversionism, and activism).
See here...and here...
Now, this guy seems to see possibility of overemphasis of the Cross and deemphasis of the Resurrection in commonly experienced crucicentricism. The way I see it, though, is this: As long as the biblical relationship between self-denial and divine exaltation is kept ("Whoever exalts themselves shall be abased, and whoever humbles themselves shall be exalted" ) in talking about the Cross...and the understanding that it is ONLY Christ's self-emptying that opened the way for his OWN experienced exaltation by God is maintained, I don't see the problem. Then crucicentricism NATURALLY LEADS TO considerations of resurrected, glorified life. In contemplating the "death" of a seed, we see that a seed doesn't die just to die...it dies so that a fruit-bearing tree (with more seeds) can come forth from it's death.
See what I'm saying?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/20/2010 11:25:09 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/20/2010 6:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry I missed this!
Whatever holiness movements might have been in the past, what I grew up in tended to place the emphasis upon what holiness looked like, i.e., what it dressed like, that it didn't go to movies, smoke, drink, play cards, and so on. There was talk of all this being the natural overflow of an inward holiness, but the inward life (development of inward perspective, humility as recognition of dependency upon God, of RESTING in God's unconditional love, etc.) didn't take first place. It didn't get the attention that the outward cultural no-no's got. In fact, it didn't take me long to learn that God loved me IF I did well, and if I didn't do well, he was at best a bit ambivalent about me.
I didn't run into Murray (and Brother Lawrence and others) till my senior year of HS and then more later.
I remember Bill Gothard (yeah, can you imagine?) defining "humility" as just confessing the truth about one's self. So to be humble meant perceiving and accepting God's view of yourself. It didn't mean pounding yourself in the ground as a worthless piece of crap.
That view on things helped me. But it does leave SOME things out, like Phil. 2, where Jesus "humbled himself" = "emptying himself" = taking the form of a servant and becoming obedient to death. That's a BIT MORE than just "knowing and accepting the truth about one's self." It's LOWERING one's self on the totem pole, and becoming a servant of others.
So humility for us may begin with embracing our utter dependency upon God, our finite existence, our hopelessness apart from God, etc., but it THEN also EMPOWERS or INSPIRES service on behalf of others. I guess what happens is that those who really do SEE/PERCEIVE themselves as God sees them (unconditionally loved and forever safe) can't BUT see others as God sees them, and where the reality of others doesn't conform to God's purpose (i.e., where others aren't living in unconditional love but are in SK despair), they step into whatever form of abasement is needed to bridge the gap and be Christ IN the brokenness of world. The idea is to release the truth of one's own perspective (one's restedness, one's peace, one's confidence and joy as derived from some otherworldly source) into the prevailing fallen perspectives one lives and works with.
Or sum'in like that.
Tom
KIXYTΘEMTAPost Edited (Tom) : 4/20/2010 7:04:06 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 4/20/2010 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/20/2010 10:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
So humility for us may begin with embracing our utter dependency upon God, our finite existence, our hopelessness apart from God, etc., but it THEN also EMPOWERS or INSPIRES service on behalf of others. I guess what happens is that those who really do SEE/PERCEIVE themselves as God sees them (unconditionally loved and forever safe) can't BUT see others as God sees them, and where the reality of others doesn't conform to God's purpose (i.e., where others aren't living in unconditional love but are in SK despair), they step into whatever form of abasement is needed to bridge the gap and be Christ IN the brokenness of world. The idea is to release the truth of one's own perspective (one's restedness, one's peace, one's confidence and joy as derived from some otherworldly source) into the prevailing fallen perspectives one lives and works with.
Absolute amen, man. There's that "double movement" of the human spirit in relationship to the Holy Spirit again, right? The only way that we can see ourselves [and the rest of Creation] from God's perspective is by the power of the Holy Spirit working in, with, and through our human spirit. In the same way, the only way that we can truly "re-present" Christ in free creative expression is by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is right in line with SK's inward "self-denial" and outward "self-sacrificing disinterestedness" in Prasing Love.
And thanks for the share, man. 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/20/2010 10:03:27 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 4/22/2010 4:35 PM (GMT -6) | | precious thread :)
D said "Absolute amen, man. There's that "double movement" of the human spirit in relationship to the Holy Spirit again, right? The only way that we can see ourselves [and the rest of Creation] from God's perspective is by the power of the Holy Spirit working in, with, and through our human spirit. In the same way, the only way that we can truly "re-present" Christ in free creative expression is by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is right in line with SK's inward "self-denial" and outward "self-sacrificing disinterestedness" in Prasing Love.
YEP, absolutely amen!!! That's all. If we walk according to the Spirit we can't (it becomes impossible to) gratify the flesh. If we focus on prayer - developing a conversation with God about everything - we'll become more sensitive and able to hear the still small voice that's trying to guide us. It's when we stop listening to that Voice (and listen to our own instead) that we have to worry about pride.
yay!! good stuff....suitable for preaching! 
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/26/2010 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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