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Tom
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Posted 4/23/2010 8:27 PM (GMT -6)

I sent him this page too. Ha.

No real relationship to anything outside itself? Hmmm. That's interesting, because when Aquinas says the same thing about God and the world (God has no real relations to the world), all the open theists said that's not possible because both God and creation exist and God is the ground and sustainer of creation.

Now we're gonna say no real relations can obtain between God and creation?

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 8:32 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Now we're gonna say no real relations can obtain between God and creation?

Hayell, naw, no one's gonna do that. We'd have to deny the very Person of the Holy Spirit to do that. From OCA'S "epiklesis" page..

The Orthodox Church believes, as it prays, that the Holy Spirit is always "everywhere and fills all things." The invocation of the Holy Spirit at the Divine Liturgy is the solemn affirmation that everything in life which is positive and good is accomplished by the Spirit of God. Creation, salvation, eternal glorification; the entire work of God in making and saving the world is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who dwelt in Jesus making him the Christ. He is the one by whom Christ was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. He is the one who led Christ to the cross as the innocent Victim, the one who raised him from the dead as the triumphant Victor.

He is the one who guarantees the indwelling of God with men in the Holy Communion of the Church and in the life of the Kingdom to come.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/23/2010 8:35:34 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 8:36 PM (GMT -6)

Whole thread

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 8:55 PM (GMT -6)

OMG! I see something.

Greg's view of "hell" (basically saying that a created self is somehow completely "separable" from its Divine Center, the Creator) is influenced by the WESTERN VIEW OF GRACE!!!!

That just makes sense...dang!! eek eek eek eek eek

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/23/2010 9:00:00 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 8:58 PM (GMT -6)

Do you see that, Tom?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 4/23/2010 8:59 PM (GMT -6)

Ha! Yeah. I can see that.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:00 PM (GMT -6)

This is TOO RICH! Wow.

Greg's Trinitarian Process/Warfare Worldview

Eastern Christian View of Grace

------------------------------------------

Universal Reconciliation

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/23/2010 9:04:18 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:04 PM (GMT -6)

You know, this is the missing frackin link in Greg's PhD thesis. He corrects Hartshorne in all the right ways; it's all good, but maybe he doesn't see how necessary the Orthodox view of grace is to his own thesis. But as long as you view grace in Western terms, you can't get to UR, even though there's no consistent way to do ETC given Greg's metaphysics. Orthodox grace is the missing piece to make his view work like a charm.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

Tom
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:05 PM (GMT -6)

I posted at the same time!

Actually we've said this all before, but maybe without connecting EO Grace to Greg's metaphysics.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:05 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
You know, this is the missing frackin link in Greg's PhD thesis. He corrects Hartshorne in all the right ways; it's all good, but maybe he doesn't see how necessary the Orthodox view of grace is to his own thesis. But as long as you view grace in Western terms, you can't get to UR, even though there's no consistent way to do ETC given Greg's metaphysics. Orthodox grace is the missing piece to make his view work like a charm.

YES!!!!! That's why I've been saying..."What if Greg had KNOWN about Maximus the Confessor when he first did this?"

It would have been O.V.E.R.!!!!!!!

Guess I gotta do it. yeah

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:06 PM (GMT -6)

I wanna be scandalousssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss...

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:09 PM (GMT -6)

Dude, Greg's GOTTA see this. He's just gotta. It's TOO there, right?

reading

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Tom
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:09 PM (GMT -6)

I think where we might need to qualify grace and UR is at that point where we want to insist on creaturely choice to make our view of UR work. We DO want to qualify the sense in which grace DEPENDS upon creaturely volition to effects salvation.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:11 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
I think where we might need to qualify grace and UR is at that point where we want to insist on creaturely choice to make our view of UR work. We DO want to qualify the sense in which grace DEPENDS upon creaturely volition to effects salvation.

Greg already has that in his system. It's called the human ability to "self-dispose" itself into or away from it's "eschatological essence" given to it by God. There's the volition element.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Tom
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:12 PM (GMT -6)

Yeah, I just meant weaving this view of creaturely freedom to fit with and EO view of grace GIVEN the claim that all creatures eventually make it.

T

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One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:16 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Yeah, I just meant weaving this view of creaturely freedom to fit with and EO view of grace GIVEN the claim that all creatures eventually make it.

Oh, I see. How about Maximus' idea of a person's willed alignment of their "tropos" with their "logos" through choice? As we've talked about, the creative freedom of what a creature can "mean" to God is seen in the human being through the irreducibly unique ways of HOW they do this through their personal choices. Eliminating the "gnomic" skew of the "tropos" through our own choices.

Make sense?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/23/2010 9:21:31 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/23/2010 9:53 PM (GMT -6)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/23/2010 10:23:03 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 4/23/2010 10:25 PM (GMT -6)

Spud gave me HOPE...

KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 4/23/2010 10:32:42 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 4/24/2010 8:19 AM (GMT -6)

Totally random guilty pleasure. I dig funky white boy-band music. I'm still gettin' over N'Sync and Backstreet Boys....

Jesse McCartney

Justin Bieber

Miley Cyrus (Hey, the girls rock too!)

Play that funky music white boy
Play that funky music right
Play that funky music white boy
Lay down that boogie and play that funky music till you die…
(hey,hey) till you die…yeah, yeah

"Play That Funky Music"
The Average White Band (one of my dad's favorite bands of all time!)

PS: This is the best hip-hop freestyle I've ever seen in my life. He's a British artist named Wiley. He KILLS it on WestwoodTV. And there's NO CURSING!! biggrin

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/24/2010 8:53:40 AM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 4/24/2010 11:29 AM (GMT -6)

Another piece of the puzzle to fit in a complete this picture is notion of "desire" (see Christos Yanneras). That is, part of what constitutes the divine act of sustaining human being via its logos is the idea that creaturely existence per se entails a "desiring toward" God. To be created is to desire...

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 4/24/2010 11:36 AM (GMT -6)

That would go right along with Greg's view that reality is ultimately AESTHETIC, and accordingly, with how dispositional "tendencies" operate...right?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

One Love
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Posted 4/24/2010 3:59 PM (GMT -6)

Quick thought, yo.

Can y'all imagine a human being "filled" with the ACTUAL Infinite Love, Joy, and Peace of God by the Spirit of God at all times? Like all of that coming directly from GOD HIMSELF in the human?

Doesn't that just defy the mind?? icon_smile_shock

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 4/24/2010 4:03:36 PM (GMT-5)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/24/2010 7:18 PM (GMT -6)

(o)

PotOnWheel
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Posted 4/24/2010 7:24 PM (GMT -6)

One Love said...

Doesn't that just defy the mind?? icon_smile_shock

Defy?

Or, deify? biggrin

(o)

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 4/24/2010 8:34 PM (GMT -6)

POW:

Defy?

Or, deify? biggrin

Good one, homie. Amen on that, though. cheers

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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