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Truth Aficionado
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Posted 5/11/2010 1:17 PM (GMT -6)

Tom said...
Is there anyone out there who REALLY believes in TWT1 besides Greg and me?

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 1:40 PM (GMT -6)

Ok...

In your mind, Tom, how much of a probability that at least one sinner in hell fails to change the condition of Might/Might Not (via creaturely self-determination) in any point in time out in the future?

I'm understanding your "anal" (your words) need for the consistency. I'm trying to find out how YOU are so HOPEFUL about every sinner in hell eventually choosing to submit to God?

10% chance?

5% chance?

0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance?

What...and why?

I keep thinking about the "might/might not" involved with being on top of the Eiffel Tower with two shoeboxs of cardboard letters that can speel out Psalm 119, throwing them in the air, and the logically possibility of the letters spelling out Psalm 119 on the ground. I'm sure your logic would have you say that TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, one couldn't say that it was INEVITABLE that Psalm 119 wouldn't be spelled out on the ground. But sure as hell, you'd say that for all PRACTICAL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, it was pretty much inevitable.

How does THIS situation fit into that?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/11/2010 1:47:43 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 1:45 PM (GMT -6)

D: I'm trying to find out how YOU are so HOPEFUL about every sinner in hell eventually choosing to submit to God?

T: It feels good. It's beautiful. And living in its beauty makes me more receptive to and perceptive of God in myself and others. So I choose to keep St. John's vision of Rev. 5.13ff before me. That's all. I just keep that vision of things as my goal. I can SEE and IMAGINE it all finished. That IS possible to imagine. And I live in and for and from and to and because of that vision, just like St. John I suppose did.

Hehe.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 1:47 PM (GMT -6)

There is 0% that anybody will infinitely/eternally reject God. All rejection of God is of metaphysical necessity finite in its span.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 1:52 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
D: I'm trying to find out how YOU are so HOPEFUL about every sinner in hell eventually choosing to submit to God?

T: It feels good. It's beautiful. And living in its beauty makes me more receptive to and perceptive of God in myself and others. So I choose to keep St. John's vision of Rev. 5.13ff before me. That's all. I just keep that vision of things as my goal. I can SEE and IMAGINE it all finished. That IS possible to imagine. And I live in and for and from and to and because of that vision, just like St. John I suppose did.

I feel all that. I think for me, it's knowing that we are literally composed of God's Energies of Love, inseparable from God's Holy Spirit. I anticipate the day that all humans truly UNDERSTAND what that means. When that happens...

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 1:53 PM (GMT -6)

D: In your mind, Tom, how much of a probability that at least one sinner in hell fails to change the condition of Might/Might Not (via creaturely self-determination) in any point in time out in the future?

T: I think you mean "fails to turn to God at all points in the future." The probability of that is 0. No chance of somebody failing to turn to God at all points in the future. But there's a HUGE probability that at least oen sinner will reject God "at any point" in the future. Almost certain SOME will reject God AT SOME POINT even when they don't have to.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 1:53 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
There is 0% that anybody will infinitely/eternally reject God. All rejection of God is of metaphysical necessity finite in its span.

Hmmm...how does God's infinity play into this...or does it at all? God is infinite. Creatures are finite.

I'm assuming that the bi-polar assymetrical relational unity between the Creator Spirit and Creation is a part of this...

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/11/2010 1:58:12 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 2:04 PM (GMT -6)

Big time.

1) Creaturely grounding in God's unfailing love making it impossible to irrevocably reject God (we both agree on this).
+
2) TWT1 making it possible to reject God at every GIVEN point in time (you essentially deny this I believe).
+
3) The infinitude of the future (you forget this a lot!).
=
4) 0 probability that anyone will infinitely reject God (which you think I forget!),
and
5) an almost certain probability of 1 that SOME in hell will continue to reject God AT SOME POINT in their career in hell (who really thinks Hitler will instantly experience total remorse the moment the flames touch him?).
and
6) an extremely high probability that over time everyone will come around to freely resigning to God (you want the probability to be 1; but TWT1 won't let me say it--maybe Greg or Alan can straighten me out on the logic there).

I don't know how to calculate it. We'd have to understand EVERYTHING there is to understand about freedom, hell, epistemic distance and how much is required, in what sense it's required, etc. to be able to even venture a guess. I really do encourage you to just revisit the end of Revelation. Do you SEE there anywhere "all" actually won? Do you SEE there God's final and utterly complete salvific victory throughout all creation? We both know John doesn't narrate that for us...though he was certainly capable of it. I just find that interesting.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 2:23 PM (GMT -6)

One at a time...

1) Creaturely grounding in God's unfailing love making it impossible to irrevocably reject God

Agreed.

2) TWT1 making it possible to reject God at every GIVEN point in time.

I will concede (for the Mr. Spocks out there) that rejection of God is always Might/Might Not. Meaning the probability is TECHNICALLY (sheesh) less than 1. With this, I would say that given creational "conditions" of who God is and who we are (via TWT 6) lead to your #6.

3) The infinitude of the future

I agree with this. Always have. From any present moment, there is an infinity of "future" ahead of them that is not to be completed. Somehow, my saying that a hell-person has the "Q(S)" freedom to choose to ONLY actualize the "Might Not" option continually such that they don't ever actuate salvation made sense to everyone else BUT YOU...so...

4) 0 probability that anyone will infinitely reject God.

You make it such that ONLY in cutting off any possibility to future God-ward movement can unceasing rejection of God obtain. I still don't know about that (see my stuff for the last umpteen pages), but hey... We'll ask Greg about that.

5) an almost certain probability of 1 that SOME in hell will continue to reject God AT SOME POINT in their career in hell.

Yep.

6) an extremely high probability that over time everyone will come around to freely resigning to God (you want the probability to be 1; but TWT1 won't let me say it--maybe Greg or Alan can straighten me out on the logic there).

Oy vay. Dude, just be the raging "T" that you are. I'm gonna be my "F" self and say this:

"In my view, it's MORE PROBABLE that a person could be on top of the Eiffel Tower with two shoeboxes of cardboard letters that can spell out Psalm 119, throw them in the air, and have them readably spell out Psalm 119 on the ground below...than it is that anyone in hell fails to come around to freely resigning to God."

Would YOU be able to say that, Tom?

Also, how come your #6 couldn't have an "almost certain probability of 1"? Would you not be able to say that?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/11/2010 2:35:13 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 2:56 PM (GMT -6)

T: 4) 0 probability that anyone will infinitely reject God.

D: You make it such that ONLY in cutting off any possibility to future God-ward movement can unceasing rejection of God obtain.

T: No, that confuses "unceasing" with "irrevocable." Unceassing rejection of God can NEVER "obtain" even for the irrevocably solidified against God. It can't obtain because the infinite future can't obtain. (4) just follows from (3). I don't suppose that somebody has to FIRST irrevocably solidify or something like that in order to make infinite rejection of God impossible. Infinite rejection of God is impossible because doing ANYTHING for an infinite length of time is impossible, whatever it may be.

Better?

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:00 PM (GMT -6)

D: Quoting YOURS TRULY!! "In my view, it's MORE PROBABLE that a person could be on top of the Eiffel Tower with two shoeboxes of cardboard letters that can spell out Psalm 119, throw them in the air, and have them readably spell out Psalm 119 on the ground below...than it is that anyone in hell fails to come around to freely resigning to God."

Would YOU be able to say that, Tom?

T: Yeah, though I have to admit the MATH of infinitude and all that, I have difficulty imagining anyone perpetuating their rejection very long. But the MATH and logic won't let me say 1, just like I can't say the probability of the Scrabble letters not forming Ps. 119 is 1. Technically it's 'possible', though irrational to EXPECT.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:08 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
Infinite rejection of God is impossible because doing ANYTHING for an infinite length of time is impossible, whatever it may be.

So, it's impossible for glorified beings to love God unceasingly or for an "infinite length of time" then?

Better tell Greg.

*********************************

Tom:
Yeah, though I have to admit the MATH of infinitude and all that, I have difficulty imagining anyone perpetuating their rejection very long. But the MATH and logic won't let me say 1, just like I can't say the probability of the Scrabble letters not forming Ps. 119 is 1. Technically it's 'possible', though irrational to EXPECT.

Now that bolded statement, I can DEFINITELY get down with. As I think about it, I bet that was the intuition that has been driving me. It truly makes my head hurt to NOT ACKNOWLEDGE the "almost certain probability of 1" that anyone in hell will come around to freely resigning to God...such that one would actually EXPECT some people in hell to NOT come around.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/11/2010 3:19:56 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:12 PM (GMT -6)

D: So, it's impossible for glorified beings to love God unceasingly or for an "infinite length of time" then?

T: Of course it's impossible. It's impossible because at any point in time however long we will have ACTUALLY praised God in heaven, there will still be MORE out in front of us. And so long as there's ANY time still out in front of you, you haven't completed an "infinite length of time." And since there will ALWAYS be more out in front of you, you can never "have worshipped God forever." But I CAN of course be true that we will NEVER cease loving and praising God.

Gosh.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 5/11/2010 3:15:05 PM (GMT-5)

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:14 PM (GMT -6)

Yeah. We gotta talk to Greg about that. See what he says...

I understand that the infinite future can't be completed...really. I just don't see how it cannot be extrapolated that something can happen ceaselessly into the future. I believe that Jesus will love us ceaselessly into the future. I feel like it's EASY for me to extrapolate that. But you say no. Not even God Himself can do anything "ceaselessly" into the infinite future. Have you told Greg about this?

It's almost like this: if we were in space and threw a rock...and we could be sure (by some means) that nothing would interfere with it's path, I believe that you and I would extrapolate that the rock would float in the thrown direction ceaselessly (at least until the universe ends). This would just be COMMON SENSE TALK, you know.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/11/2010 3:20:31 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:23 PM (GMT -6)

Dude, you already agree that you can't succeed in traversing the infinite future, cross its line and stand on the finish line of eternity, right? There's always more to go. So if there's MORE to go, then there's SOME you haven't yet ACTUALLY traversed. So it can never be the case that we can have done anything for an infinite length of time. We can irrevocable lovers of God and irrevocably secure in God. In that case we can not that our existence will NEVER END, and that our enjoyment of God WILL (probability of 1) go on and on and on. But we'll never complete all the infinite future.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:24 PM (GMT -6)

Wait a second...

D: So, it's impossible for glorified beings to love God unceasingly or for an "infinite length of time" then?

T: Of course it's impossible. It's impossible because at any point in time however long we will have ACTUALLY praised God in heaven, there will still be MORE out in front of us. And so long as there's ANY time still out in front of you, you haven't completed an "infinite length of time." And since there will ALWAYS be more out in front of you, you can never "have worshipped God forever." But I CAN of course be true that we will NEVER cease loving and praising God.

I don't think so, buddy. How in the world are you gonna say that it can be true that we will UNCEASINGLY (that's what "never cease" means!) love and praise God?

Dude, either you are contradicting yourself HARD...or there is definitely something I'm not seeing! These are YOUR WORDS...

"...doing ANYTHING for an infinite length of time is impossible, whatever it may be."

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:31 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
We can irrevocable lovers of God and irrevocably secure in God. In that case we can know that our existence will NEVER END, and that our enjoyment of God WILL (probability of 1) go on and on and on. But we'll never complete all the infinite future.

So, for you, probability never equals 1 UNLESS there is some kind of irrevocability involved. THEN you can extrapolate about something going "on and on and one" INTO the future but never COMPLETING the future. So, I guess you'd say that God will UNENDINGLY, UNCEASINGLY love us because he is "irrevocably" Love, right?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:31 PM (GMT -6)

D: I understand that the infinite future can't be completed...really. I just don't see how it cannot be extrapolated that something can happen ceaselessly into the future. I believe that Jesus will love us ceaselessly into the future. I feel like it's EASY for me to extrapolate that.

T: Sure, extrapolate away. I do. No problem. But this means saying we NEVER CEASE loving God. We become irrevocably secure in him and go on loving him without end. What you can't say is that you COMPLETE loving God "for an infinite length of time." That's all I said.

D: But you say no. Not even God Himself can do anything "ceaselessly" into the infinite future.

T: Now you're changing. One can not cease (never stop) doing something "into the infinite future" if you mean keep going and going and never stop. No problem. What not even God can do is FINISH an "infinite length of time" with us in heaven. Can't finish it. That's all.

See, when I say "X cannot INFINITELY do Y" I mean "X cannot actually have done Y for an infinite length of time." But you, it seems, just mean "X can do Y without ever stopping." I agree X can do Y without ever stopping. I just don't equate that with "doing Y 'infinitely'."

No biggie.

T

Tom

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Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:36 PM (GMT -6)

D: Dude, either you are contradicting yourself HARD...or there is definitely something I'm not seeing! These are YOUR WORDS...

"...doing ANYTHING for an infinite length of time is impossible, whatever it may be."

T: I just mean doing something for so long that you finally get to the place where the time BEHIND you, the time for which you have been doing it, is an INFINITE length of time. That's what we can't do.

You agree with me. Don't worry.

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:36 PM (GMT -6)

Tom, I'm about to pass out on the floor right now. Actually here i go...(thump!)

You just said:
One can not cease (never stop) doing something "into the infinite future" if you mean keep going and going and never stop. No problem.

and...

But you, it seems, just mean "X can do Y without ever stopping." I agree X can do Y without ever stopping.

Primal scream time!

EEEEEAYYYYYAYAYAYAYAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!! shocked

What in the world do you think I've been trying to articulate for at least the last 10 pages? I didn't mean anything BUT what you just said! Ask Asher!

AAAAAAAAUGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! freaked

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:39 PM (GMT -6)

Sheesh.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:44 PM (GMT -6)

You said:
"One can not cease (never stop) doing something "into the infinite future" if you mean keep going and going and never stop."

This is what I've been trying to say for SOME TIME NOW...

One can "not cease" their suffering in hell "into the infinite future", if you mean keep going and going in defiance to God and never stop. If this occurs, then their suffering will "not cease"!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/11/2010 3:47:49 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:46 PM (GMT -6)

Careful...quick qualification.

This all came up because you kept accusing me of believing that sinners can "infinitely reject God." To ME that means sinners can reject God SO LONG they eventually get to a place where an infinite length of time is behind them and no more time is out in front of them. That's why nobody can infinitely reject God.

But there's a slight qualification I'd like to add to the sense in which the glorified will ENJOY their prospects for the future. The glorified are irrevocably God's and so they can KNOW that they will NEVER CEASE loving God. They can KNOW this because the know they are irrevocably God's. It's not POSSIBLE for them to stop loving God.

The wicked in hell are different. They are NOT irrevocably set against God, so it's always possible that they can come home. Thus, the sense in which the glorified embrace their potential future in God is UNLIKE the sense in which the wicked are able to embrace their rejection of God.

The wicked can always reject God, but can never free themselves from having to sustain their rejection. They can never rest in their rejection. The glorified CAN rest in their embrace of God. They no longer have to strive to sustain themselves (through the Spiritual disciplines or asceticism).

Hope that helps.

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

One Love
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:52 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:
This all came up because you kept accusing me of believing that sinners can "infinitely reject God." To ME that means sinners can reject God SO LONG they eventually get to a place where an infinite length of time is behind them and no more time is out in front of them. That's why nobody can infinitely reject God.

Bro, THIS RIGHT HERE is the first time I even talked about that...and what I said and what YOU said....

----------------------------------------

Posted By : Tom - 5/2/2010 2:51 PM

D: Let me just ask it simply: Do you, Tom, believe that will be true that at least one person will, in fact, experience "endless suffering" (ala endless resistance of recieving God's Love for oneself?

Tom: What you need to see is the meaninglessness, the incoherence, of the question. The question asks whether anybody will ever succeed IN FACT to suffer endlessly. What I’m saying is that there can be no such fact. One can never complete or comprehend future eternity and succeed in ‘having rejected God for all eternity’. “All eternity” is a potential infinity, and no “fact of the matter” (not even God’s own existence) can coherently be said to have comprehended it in any manner. All we can coherently ask is whether a person in his experience of hell will at any actual moment free to say both ‘yes’ and ‘no’ to God. If ‘yes’, then there’s no terminus ad quem and no ‘checkmating’ the ‘will’. If ‘no’, then there IS a terminus ad quem and you DO ‘checkmate’ the will.

What I meant by that was JUST this...and nothing BUT this: One can "not cease" their suffering in hell "into the infinite future", if you mean keep going and going in defiance to God and never stop. If this occurs, then their suffering will "not cease"

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Tom
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Posted 5/11/2010 3:52 PM (GMT -6)

D: One can "not cease" their suffering in hell "into the infinite future", if you mean keep going and going in defiance to God and never stop. If this occurs, then their suffering will "not cease"!

T: So long as their "not ceasing" is not irrevocable (as it the glorified's love of God) and the possibility of their "never stopping" is also not irrevocable. All it means is that at any GIVEN point the wicked can always fight to sustain their rejection. They can never succeed in not having to sustain that rejection.

See what I mean?

T

KIXYTΘEMTA

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