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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > The Nail in the Coffin: The Ultimate Victory of God | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
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| Posted 5/2/2010 2:59 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Asher
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
| Posted 5/2/2010 3:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom: "I think we’ll take whatever level of character solidification and choice consequence with us into hell. So, say, Hitler I don’t think will even be able to just choose, poof, for God on the spot. Given his level of solidification, it’ll take some time for him to burn through the garbage and come to enough clarity to make responsibly and freely choosing God a psychological possibility. Same with all the radical creeps of the world. How long? We can’t know. What we might be able to say safely is that the probability of anyone persisting longer than their natural corrupted state requires will be small indeed, incalculably small as we press on into the future."
Absolutely...it will take as long as it takes. Hitler, given his starting point, will have much to work through.
What we do know is this...Hitler was born a baby just like all the rest of us...he, in his lifetime, went from being that baby to being the Hitler of infamy. I'm not saying that there is some kind of one-to-one correlation between the time it took to move from the attitudes of a baby to the attitudes of a mature Hitler...and...how long it will take Hitler to undo each misrelated step away from God...to correct something nearly always takes longer than to do something correct the first time...but...but...I think it should give us some hope...that if a person can move from the relative innocence of childhood to being a Hitler in half an earthly lifetime...that it is likely that a person will move in the other direction in something less than a quadramillion years or whatever it was...given that all their evasive chessmen are no longer in the equation to allow them to escape confronting the truth...that whereas they once had a multitude of evasive possibilities...they are now reduced to very few evasive possibilities...
Does fatigue never come into the equation? Can a person with one or two possible evasions persist in those evasions? Where is all that strength of resistance coming from? Yes, I do believe God is grounding their possibility of freedom to keep resisting...but does that mean that God is infusing them with strength to keep resisting? Those that wait upon the Lord renew their strength...but do those who resist the Lord renew theirs as well? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/2/2010 3:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Asher:
Does fatigue never come into the equation? Can a person with one or two possible evasions persist in those evasions? Where is all that strength of resistance coming from? Yes, I do believe God is grounding their possibility of freedom to keep resisting...but does that mean that God is infusing them with strength to keep resisting? Those that wait upon the Lord renew their strength...but do those who resist the Lord renew theirs as well?
I BELIEVE THAT IT DOES, ASHER.
That's part of what I'd been saying. One would have to posit a INFATIGABLE finite being who "never tires" of actively resisting God's love from the inside of his very being. I just don't see any reason to believe that's the case.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/2/2010 3:13:29 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/2/2010 3:16 PM (GMT -6) | | 7) Is the creaturely freedom of choosing for or against God conditioned by a "fatigue factor" of actively opposing their will with God's infinite will-to-loving-patience? (YES)
If not, there is a ETERNAL DUALISM in effect.
Basically, Tom, your view has God giving creatures spiritual realities that "burn up but are not consumed"...giving them INFATIGABILITY to withstand hell endlessly. Is that what God does?
Is there no ASSYMETRY here?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/2/2010 3:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
If fatigue ultimately wears the creature down, it wears his WILL down, and if the creature is ultimately fatigued, then the creature is just giving up, not willingly conceding.
OH, COME ON!!!!!!!
So, if the King-having opponent gets TIRED of fighting an "hopeless" battle against their opponent, they are NOT willingly conceding...and the concession is not valid???????
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/2/2010 3:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok, we need to get personal here, I guess.
Let's say one of your daughters doesn't believe she's lovable and doesn't WANT to believe that (for whatever reason). She ACTIVELY wants to live in self-hatred, ok? Now, you and Anita spend all the time you can demonstrating to her that she IS lovable and loved. Now after 30 years of this, she gets "tired" of standing against all this love that her heart (unbeknownst to her) has been CREATED to receive! She decides to "surrender" to your "love bombing"...and begins to see herself as lovable.
Do you REALLY mean to tell me that you would see her surrender to your love as being "under duress"?????????
Are you gonna tell me that unless she received your love WITHOUT being "tired out" by her own resistance against you and Anita...that it doesn't count?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/2/2010 3:27:23 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/2/2010 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
D: The "fatigue" was ALWAYS A "CONDITION" I had in this. Check the FIRST POST. My whole thing was based on the resistant, finite creature being FATIGABLE and God, with his Infinite Love and Patience being INFATIGABLE. The TWT 5 freedom is made FINITE (TWT 6) by the fatigue factor of creaturely beings.
T: Yeah, I know. That's why we're disagreeing. Suffering can motivate people to dispose to the truth and genuinely, freely yield to it. Suffering can also motivate people to feign resignation just to escape their pain. God will discern the difference. No worries. When suffering becomes so excessive that it essentially eradicate a person's ability to reason one's way through to a choice about TRUTH, then they're no longer free; then "escaping their pain" BECOMES the truth they perceive, and that's not what God wants.
I completely disagree. Then the PRODIGAL SON wasn't free!
Is that what you want to say?
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/2/2010 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | 1) Was the Prodigal Son NOT FREE when he "came to himself" and went back to the Father's house?
2) Do you think that the Father CARED about under what circumstances the Prodigal came back (including "coming to himself" in a pigpen, of all places)?
Let's see what you say...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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