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One Love
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   Posted 10/19/2010 11:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
a) Isn't that the very definition of hell? In other words, anything prior to that is not "hell at its worst." The rock-bottom-experience seems to me to be the ultimate hellish experience. While the person is being “wore down” or “tired out“ (fatigued) is it fair to say that this person is in hell as at its worst?

I've come to believe that "hell" is the momentary insanity that stems from being "out of sync" with reality (ie. Divine Presence). And one's rock-bottom-experience--whenever that is--is basically when they've come to the end of their self-separation and despair enough to begin reaching out for the "Other" (God) that has been lovingly empowering and sustaining them all this time anyway. Think "Footprints". ;-)


*******************************************

Brandon:
What happens after that? For example, say a person comes to the realization of their need for Jesus as Savior. They are "gradually" seeing the light or they, after being wore down, had the greatest "Aha" moment. On the first account, would they be receiving more healing? Becoming more whole and experiencing more and more fuller joy? They aren't completely healed, but they are on their way. In other words, would they GRADUALLY be coming out of hell? If there is a moment by moment resisting of God, and the moment comes when there is no more resisting God, would said person then be automatically removed from that state of existence as in the second "Aha" account? Would they automatically land and be embraced by God? Or would the landing be gradual? A slow landing. Meaning there are times when a person may try to push back away even after their "Aha" moment but this time with LESS resistance.

Make sense?


Think about when a person "gets saved", meaning puts their faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Scripture indicates that from that point, the process of HOly Spirit regeneration has already begun. And the evidence is apparent. No one can authentically call Jesus Lord but by the working of the HOly Spirit in that person. So, they are genuinely spiritually reborn into "new creations" at THAT point. But working out their habituated patterns of resistence to divine intiative will take time. Gradual landing while being accepted/embraced by God all the way down.

I'd say it has to be this way all the way throughout.  Meaning Holy Spirit regeneration can be instant while further renewing takes time.  I'm thinking of the "leaves for the HEALING of the nations" in Revelation 22. You know, those "nations" that were thrown into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20-21.  Heh.  icon_brows2


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 10/19/2010 11:20:31 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/20/2010 11:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm... you said, "And one's rock bottom-experience--whenever that is- is basically when they've come to the end of their self-separation and despair **enough** to begin reaching out for the "Other"

See that's what I'm saying. Any moment prior to the rock bottom experience is "not enough." It seems to me that when someone has bottomed out they've hit the lowest of the low. Anything prior to that is durable. So hell isn't the worst possible state of existence prior to that rock bottom experience.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/20/2010 11:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You go to any twelve step group? They tell you that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and hetting the same results. "Hey, I tried it this way, it didn't work. I think I'll try it again! " They say that type of person hasn't hit rock bottom yet. Hasn't bottomed out. Whatever pain they are experiencing is durable enough compared to when they are then laid out flat. At some point they bottom out yes. I don't find that problematic here. What I'm asking about is the moment by moment time before that. That isn't the worst state of futile existence they endure. For some reason the pain isn't strong enough. Think about someone in the military who is conditioned to recieve great amounts of torture. At some point they bottom out. Can't take it any more. Well we are not in the military and we have some people who are harder than others. Some will yield right away. Others could stay in orbit for long periods of time. And I think that was one of Tommy's objections in one of tje other threads. If people are doing that NOW what is any different post mortem?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/20/2010 12:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Also, would you not say that how hell as defined on these boards, an evangelical rendition of purgatory?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 10/20/2010 1:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
And I think that was one of Tommy's objections in one of tje other threads. If people are doing that NOW what is any different post mortem?

However long they orbit, it will be a FINITE amount of time compared with they're infinity forward with God, remember? Tom's all over that.  Though it is logically possible that a person could eternally choose to refrain to "land" in God's love, the possibility is so REMOTE that it's not existentially viable to say so.  Remember that, too?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/20/2010 2:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes.  I remember that.  I agree.  A person can refrain from landing in God's love (they are orbiting for some time). However, it is remote that they will do so (that they will continue to orbit for eternity).  However, during the time they are still in orbit they have obviously not "landed."  Its at this point that the pain it seems is not at its greatest.  That's all.  What's KEEPING THEM in orbit?  If that's the case, then it seems that they have not reached the threshold of pain.  Maximum velocity?  They can't accelerate any further.  Sure.  Its a finite and minute point of time compared to eternity.  But some people might stay in orbit for 100 000 years, which though is a finite point in time is still quite a bit of time to stay in hell.  If the time spent undoing those habituated patterns takes time, guess what? They're going to be in hell for some time.  Part of that 100 000 years may be the actual undoing of those patterns.  So what you have is:
 
A. Person is resisting God (in orbit).
B. They become "saved." The "Aha" moment.  The bottoming out experience.
C. They work towards undoing habituated patterns (slow landing).
 
Both A and C would still seem to be hellish experiences but not as bad as B.
 
A is what would bring them to B and C is what would be getting them out of B.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 10/20/2010 2:08:23 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/21/2010 11:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK. Am I missing something here?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 10/21/2010 11:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't think you are...I guess. ;-)


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 10/21/2010 11:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
So what you have is:

A. Person is resisting God (in orbit).
B. They become "saved." The "Aha" moment. The bottoming out experience.
C. They work towards undoing habituated patterns (slow landing).

Both A and C would still seem to be hellish experiences but not as bad as B.

A is what would bring them to B and C is what would be getting them out of B.


Isn't this just how the pattern of rebellion (before salvation), regeneration/sealing (moment of salvation), santification (after salvation) goes in the lives of believers here on earth? I know that after I got "saved" I had both conscious and unconscious attitudes and patterns that resisted God in different ways...even though I had had the "Aha"/I need Jesus moment.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/21/2010 11:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Definitely. But the point I'm making is that as long as someone stays in orbit, which could be LONG TIME, life (or existence) can't be all that bad. The only time it is at its worst is when they feel so much pain and see the futility of it all. Thus, hell can't be that bad of a "place. " At least not until they bottom out.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 10/21/2010 12:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
Definitely. But the point I'm making is that as long as someone stays in orbit, which could be LONG TIME, life (or existence) can't be all that bad. The only time it is at its worst is when they feel so much pain and see the futility of it all. Thus, hell can't be that bad of a "place. " At least not until they bottom out.

Hell CAN be that bad of a "place" while we can be so out of tune with ourselves to notice. It would be like a person who's so deadened their own sensitivity to actual harm and threats to the body...it takes a while just to re-sensitize oneself to truly feel how bad off one really is.

Again, using myself as example. When I was in "orbit", I thought I was pretty ok. It actually took me being re-sensitized to my actual situation before the hell I was in could really FEEL like hell to me. Knowhutimean?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 10/21/2010 1:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK.  This starts to address my question.  I remember watching a video of a sermon that Greg preached.  On the video he showed before and after pictures of a lady using drugs.  Life had been sucked from her as a result of using.  Looked real bad.  But she kept using.  Obviously, it hadn't hit her that she was "in hell."  Well, maybe.  She could have known but didn't have the strenght of will to overcome her hellish addiction.  I don't doubt that people in such circumstances say to themselves, "Life has GOT to be better than this!"  But for whatever reason, one being re-sensitization, they stay in "orbit."  Ontologically or positionally they are "in hell" only they don't see it for what it is.
 
OK.  Makes sense.  UR it is.  biggrin  Done deal.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 10/21/2010 1:42:14 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/10/2011 12:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hound of Heaven
 
Saw this the other day and liked what the Neumann Press quote said
 
'The name is strange. It startles one at first. It is so bold, so new, so fearless. It does not attract, rather the reverse. But when one reads the poem this strangeness disappears. The meaning is understood. As the hound follows the hare, never ceasing in its running, ever drawing nearer in the chase, with unhurrying and imperturbed pace, so does God follow the fleeing soul by His Divine grace. And though in sin or in human love, away from God it seeks to hide itself, **Divine grace follows after, unwearyingly follows ever after, till the soul feels its pressure forcing it to turn to Him alone in that never ending pursuit.** —The Neumann Press Book of Verse, 1988
 
The Hound of Heaven
 
I fled Him down the nights and down the days
I fled Him down the arches of the years
I fled Him down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind, and in the midst of tears
I hid from him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped and shot precipitated
Adown titanic glooms of chasme d hears
From those strong feet that followed, followed after
But with unhurrying chase and unperturbe d pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat, and a Voice beat,
More instant than the feet:
All things betray thee who betrayest me.

I pleaded, outlaw--wise by many a hearted casement,
curtained red, trellised with inter-twining charities,
For though I knew His love who followe d,
Yet was I sore adread, lest having Him,
I should have nought beside.
But if one little casement parted wide,
The gust of his approach would clash it to.
Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.
Across the margent of the world I fled,
And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,
Smiting for shelter on their clange d bars,
Fretted to dulcet jars and silvern chatter
The pale ports of the moon.

I said to Dawn --- be sudden, to Eve --- be soon,
With thy young skiey blossoms heap me over
From this tremendous Lover.
Float thy vague veil about me lest He see.
I tempted all His servitors but to find
My own betrayal in their constancy,
In faith to Him, their fickleness to me,
Their traitorous trueness and their loyal deceit.
To all swift things for swiftness did I sue,
Clung to the whistling mane of every wind,
But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,
The long savannahs of the blue,
Or whether, thunder-driven,
They clanged His chariot thwart a heaven,
Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn of their feet,
Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.
Still with unhurrying chase and unperturbed pace
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
Came on the following feet, and a Voice above their beat:
Nought shelters thee who wilt not shelter Me.

I sought no more that after which I strayed
In face of Man or Maid.
But still within the little childrens' eyes
Seems something, something that replies,
They at least are for me, surely for me.
But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair,
With dawning answers there,
Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.
Come then, ye other children, Nature's
Share with me, said I, your delicate fellowship.
Let me greet you lip to lip,
Let me twine with you caresses,
Wantoning with our Lady Mother's vagrant tresses,
Banqueting with her in her wind walled palace,
Underneath her azured dai:s,
Quaffing, as your taintless way is,
From a chalice, lucent weeping out of the dayspring.

So it was done.
I in their delicate fellowship was one.
Drew the bolt of Nature's secrecies,
I knew all the swift importings on the wilful face of skies,
I knew how the clouds arise,
Spume d of the wild sea-snortings.
All that's born or dies,
Rose and drooped with,
Made them shapers of mine own moods, or wailful, or Divine.
With them joyed and was bereaven.
I was heavy with the Even,
when she lit her glimmering tapers round the day's dead sanctities.
I laughed in the morning's eyes.
I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,
Heaven and I wept together,
and its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine.
Against the red throb of its sunset heart,
I laid my own to beat
And share commingling heat.

But not by that, by that was eased my human smart.
In vain my tears were wet on Heaven's grey cheek.
For ah! we know what each other says,
these things and I; In sound I speak,
Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.
Nature, poor step-dame, cannot slake my drouth.
Let her, if she would owe me
Drop yon blue-bosomed veil of sky
And show me the breasts o' her tenderness.
Never did any milk of hers once bless my thirsting mouth.
Nigh and nigh draws the chase, with unperturbe d pace
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
And past those noise d feet, a Voice comes yet more fleet:
Lo, nought contentst thee who content'st nought Me.

Naked, I wait thy Love's uplifted stroke. My harness, piece by piece,
thou'st hewn from me
And smitten me to my knee,
I am defenceless, utterly.
I slept methinks, and awoke.
And slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep.
In the rash lustihead of my young powers,
I shook the pillaring hours,
and pulled my life upon me.
Grimed with smears,
I stand amidst the dust o' the mounded years--
My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap.
My days have crackled and gone up in smoke,
Have puffed and burst like sunstarts on a stream.
Yeah, faileth now even dream the dreamer
and the lute, the lutanist.
Even the linked fantasies in whose blossomy twist,
I swung the Earth, a trinket at my wrist,
Have yielded, cords of all too weak account,
For Earth, with heavy grief so overplussed.
Ah! is thy Love indeed a weed,
albeit an Amaranthine weed,
Suffering no flowers except its own to mount?
Ah! must, Designer Infinite,
Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
My freshness spent its wavering shower i' the dust.
And now my heart is as a broken fount,
Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever
From the dank thoughts that shiver upon the sighful branches of my
mind.

Such is. What is to be ?
The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind ?
I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds,
Yet ever and anon, a trumpet sounds
From the hid battlements of Eternity.
Those shaken mists a space unsettle,
Then round the half-glimpse d turrets, slowly wash again.
But not 'ere Him who summoneth
I first have seen, enwound
With glooming robes purpureal; Cypress crowned.
His name I know, and what his trumpet saith.
Whether Man's Heart or Life it be that yield thee harvest,
Must thy harvest fields be dunged with rotten death ?

Now of that long pursuit,
Comes at hand the bruit.
That Voice is round me like a bursting Sea:
And is thy Earth so marred,
Shattered in shard on shard?
Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest me.
Strange, piteous, futile thing;
Wherefore should any set thee love apart?
Seeing none but I makes much of Naught (He said).
And human love needs human meriting ---
How hast thou merited,
Of all Man's clotted clay, the dingiest clot.
Alack! Thou knowest not
How little worthy of any love thou art.
Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,
Save me, save only me?
All which I took from thee, I did'st but take,
Not for thy harms,
But just that thou might'st seek it in my arms.
All which thy childs mistake fancies as lost,
I have stored for thee at Home.
Rise, clasp my hand, and come.
Halts by me that Footfall.
Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly?
Ah, Fondest, Blindest, Weakest,
I am He whom thou seekest.
Thou dravest Love from thee who dravest Me.

Francis Thompson


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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