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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
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| Posted 5/4/2010 3:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | | See this.
What do y'all think? I think a lot of what's said is just right on...from a Christian perspective.
Some thoughts it brought on:
In any given situation, prayer involves "acquisition" or "epiclesis" of the Holy Spirit (the only means by which the Perspective of God is known) in order to see one's unique, particular existences--with all it's despair and transcendence--, through the "lens" of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Prayer is one's reaching out for the MEANS (Grace) to see and live in his/her world in God's Perspective by the Holy Spirit within them. And God responds immediately to the broken, humble, contrite heart...and nothing else. Those that draw near to God with an humble heart will, by faith, immediately know that God is "near" them. And they will KNOW that "God always nothing other than good!"
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."
PS: Something I've always wondered about petitionary prayer and open theism's focus on it: It seem like the main thing we should be asking for is God's Spirit, not some particular event or expectation to come to pass. The fullness of God HIMSELF is in His Spirit...which, biblically, we have every reason to believe we can be "filled" with and "walk in" at all moments. When that happens, one can see their lives through their spiritual union with the Holy Spirit of the Creator God. You just don't get better than that. So why spend time trying to ask for specific things to happen and figuring out all these counterfactual logistics...if that time is DIVERTED FROM seeking what is absolutely necessary in getting "God's Perspective" on things.
Hmmm...I guess I'd say that with the whole spiritual warfare thing, too. Yes, spiritual danger and battle is real. At the same time...I really don't think that should be our focus. Like Greg said...the PRESENCE OF GOD should be our main focus. And humility before God is the method. Like so.
What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the Spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
I like this Metropolitan's quote from that...
"Prayer is essentially standing face to face with God, consciously striving to remain collected and absolutely still and attentive in his presence, which means standing with an undivided mind, an undivided heart and an undivided will in the presence of the Lord; and that is not easy."
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2010 4:07:47 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/4/2010 5:46 AM (GMT -6) | | From here...
A Secret of Secrets: Humility, the Soul of True Prayer.
Till the spirit of the heart be renewed, till it is emptied of all earthly desires, and stands in an habitual hunger and thirst after God, which is the true spirit of prayer; till then, all our prayer will be, more or less, but too much like lessons given to scholars; and we shall mostly say them, only because we dare not neglect them. But be not discouraged; take the following advice, and then you may go to church without any danger of mere lip-labor or hypocrisy, although there should be a hymn or a prayer, whose language is higher than that of your heart. Do this: go to the church as the publican went to the temple; stand inwardly in the spirit of your mind in that form which he outwardly expressed, when he cast down his eyes, and could only say, "God be merciful to me, a sinner." Stand unchangeably, at least in your desire, in this form or state of heart; it will sanctify every petition that comes out of your mouth; and when anything is read or sung or prayed, that is more exalted than your heart is, if you make this an occasion of further sinking down in the spirit of the publican, you will then be helped, and highly blessed, by those prayers and praises which seem only to belong to a heart better than yours.
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Tom
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| Posted 5/4/2010 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey D,
I think it’s extremely difficult (if not impossible) for the EO to make good sense of petitionary prayer. You know the drill. All things participate in God. God participates in nothing. All things receive the rays of the sun. God receives nothing. Everything that happens in the course of the world’s temporal becoming (even the world’s ongoing moment by moment sustainment) is effect by a SINGLE undifferentiated decree to command.
Hmm, not sure why I’m off on the EO this morning. OK, so back to you…
D: In any given situation, prayer involves "acquisition" or "epiclesis" of the Holy Spirit (the only means by which the Perspective of God is known) in order to see one's unique, particular existences--with all its despair and transcendence--, through the "lens" of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Prayer is one's reaching out for the MEANS (Grace) to see and live in his/her world in God's Perspective by the Holy Spirit within them.
Tom: Yes, but that’s not ALL prayer is. We petition for more than just grace (unless we’re just saying that all the things God does in response to our prayers are a ‘grace’—and they are—but that doesn’t mean what God wants to do in the world isn’t conditioned upon our petitioning for specific needs).
D: Something I've always wondered about petitionary prayer and open theism's focus on it: It seem like the main thing we should be asking for is God's Spirit, not some particular event or expectation to come to pass. The fullness of God HIMSELF is in His Spirit...which, biblically, we have every reason to believe we can be "filled" with and "walk in" at all moments. When that happens, one can see their lives through their spiritual union with the Holy Spirit of the Creator God. You just don't get better than that. So why spend time trying to ask for specific things to happen and figuring out all these counterfactual logistics...if that time is DIVERTED FROM seeking what is absolutely necessary in getting "God's Perspective" on things.
Tom: Why either/or?
D: Hmmm...I guess I'd say that with the whole spiritual warfare thing, too. Yes, spiritual danger and battle is real. At the same time...I really don't think that should be our focus. Like Greg said...the PRESENCE OF GOD should be our main focus. And humility before God is the method.
Tom: Is that what Jesus was teaching his disciples with the Lord’s Prayer? No specific requests. None of its content determined by the specific needs of the world around us? There’s priority in it for sure—God as Father, the glory of his name, the priority of his Kingdom, and THEN our needs within those priorities, etc.
I always come at differently. Sorry. It sucks I know.
Tom
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/4/2010 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
D: Something I've always wondered about petitionary prayer and open theism's focus on it: It seem like the main thing we should be asking for is God's Spirit, not some particular event or expectation to come to pass. The fullness of God HIMSELF is in His Spirit...which, biblically, we have every reason to believe we can be "filled" with and "walk in" at all moments. When that happens, one can see their lives through their spiritual union with the Holy Spirit of the Creator God. You just don't get better than that. So why spend time trying to ask for specific things to happen and figuring out all these counterfactual logistics...if that time is DIVERTED FROM seeking what is absolutely necessary in getting "God's Perspective" on things.
Tom: Why either/or?
It's not either/or more than I don't see an over-focus on petitionary prayer. Like NOT having the priorities of the Lord's prayer.
And with the Lord's prayer...look at this...
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Now, relatively speaking, how much time and energy of the prayer is to be spent upon petitionary needs for specific things that we THINK we need?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/4/2010 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Hey D,
If you're just talking about prattling on "thinking we'll be heard because of our many words," then sure. I'm with ya. But I didn't get that from your first post. It sounded (with Metropolitan's quote) like we should never petition God, or hardly every petition him.
D: Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Now, relatively speaking, how much time and energy of the prayer is to be spent upon petitionary needs for specific things that we THINK we need?
T: You missed some other PETITIONS for NEEDS in the prayer. Let ME underline them:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come, [essentially, the subjunctive: Let your kingdom come]
your will be done [same thing here too; essentially a request]
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Hehe.
You're not talking about just petitionary prayer, you're talking about a subset of all petitions, i.e., petitioning God for material things maybe (food, job, etc.).
Tom
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One Love
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| Posted 5/4/2010 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
You're not talking about just petitionary prayer, you're talking about a subset of all petitions, i.e., petitioning God for material things maybe (food, job, etc.).
Thanks for the precision. I'm talking about the subset of petitionary prayer that deals with trying to change one's CIRCUMSTANCES (eating, drinking, etc) through some form of bargaining or pleading of God...trying to "change God's mind" on something. Whether this is for financial breakthrough or physical healing..or whatever. This is distinct from seeking what God is already doing in order to join God in God's working. (Let your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.)
Now, from what I've seen, open theism place a lot of stock on being able to pray and "change God's mind" about some certain circumstances such that he would "be merciful" and change what he MAY be is intending to do. Have you experienced that in open theists?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 5/4/2010 1:04 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/4/2010 1:47 PM (GMT -6) | | HOPKO ON PRAYER, PREDESTINAAITON AND PROVIDENCE.
NOT THAT HARD.
Tom said...Hey D, I think it’s extremely difficult (if not impossible) for the EO to make good sense of petitionary prayer. You know the drill. All things participate in God. God participates in nothing. All things receive the rays of the sun. God receives nothing. Everything that happens in the course of the world’s temporal becoming (even the world’s ongoing moment by moment sustainment) is effect by a SINGLE undifferentiated decree to command. Hmm, not sure why I’m off on the EO this morning. OK, so back to you… D: In any given situation, prayer involves "acquisition" or "epiclesis" of the Holy Spirit (the only means by which the Perspective of God is known) in order to see one's unique, particular existences--with all its despair and transcendence--, through the "lens" of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Prayer is one's reaching out for the MEANS (Grace) to see and live in his/her world in God's Perspective by the Holy Spirit within them. Tom: Yes, but that’s not ALL prayer is. We petition for more than just grace (unless we’re just saying that all the things God does in response to our prayers are a ‘grace’—and they are—but that doesn’t mean what God wants to do in the world isn’t conditioned upon our petitioning for specific needs). D: Something I've always wondered about petitionary prayer and open theism's focus on it: It seem like the main thing we should be asking for is God's Spirit, not some particular event or expectation to come to pass. The fullness of God HIMSELF is in His Spirit...which, biblically, we have every reason to believe we can be "filled" with and "walk in" at all moments. When that happens, one can see their lives through their spiritual union with the Holy Spirit of the Creator God. You just don't get better than that. So why spend time trying to ask for specific things to happen and figuring out all these counterfactual logistics...if that time is DIVERTED FROM seeking what is absolutely necessary in getting "God's Perspective" on things. Tom: Why either/or? D: Hmmm...I guess I'd say that with the whole spiritual warfare thing, too. Yes, spiritual danger and battle is real. At the same time...I really don't think that should be our focus. Like Greg said...the PRESENCE OF GOD should be our main focus. And humility before God is the method. Tom: Is that what Jesus was teaching his disciples with the Lord’s Prayer? No specific requests. None of its content determined by the specific needs of the world around us? There’s priority in it for sure—God as Father, the glory of his name, the priority of his Kingdom, and THEN our needs within those priorities, etc. I always come at differently. Sorry. It sucks I know. Tom
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 5/4/2010 2:28 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/4/2010 7:41 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't disagree with what you are saying in your thesis. (Nice!) It seems like you just articulated the "beauty" of synergy between human wills and the Divine Will is part of the intention of the Creator for interpersonal relationship with the Created. I ain't got no problem with that. First, you got the Theotokos (epitome of Grace and Faith). Next, there's epicletic "filling" with the Spirit of God. God doesn't just automatically zap people with it, without any level of intention or openness on the human person's part. There is a synergy of desire: God lovingly seeking to bestow his Spirit, the human loving seeking to receive God's Spirit.
I guess my question is this: Do we make "acquisition of the Spirit" (seeking God's Perspective, petitioning God for his Spirit, etc.) LESS OF a priority than petitioning God for specific historical outcomes, events, or experiences? Said another way: Shouldn't Christians prioritize petitioning God for the "one needful thing" over other things?
I think that a central way that we bring God's Kingdom is by asking God to "fill" us with the Holy Spirit every present moment. And doing THAT is hard enough!! 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2010 7:46:02 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 5/4/2010 8:05 PM (GMT -6) | | John Wesley...
-----------------------
11. Yet lackest thou one thing, whosoever thou art, that to a deep humility, and a steadfast faith, hast joined a lively hope, and thereby in a good measure cleansed thy heart from its inbred pollution. If thou wilt be perfect, add to all these, charity; add love, and thou hast the circumcision of the heart. "Love is the fulfilling of the law, the end of the commandment." Very excellent things are spoken of love; it is the essence, the spirit, the life of all virtue. It is not only the first and great command, but it is all the commandments in one. "Whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are amiable," or honorable; "if there be any virtue, if there be any praise," they are all comprised in this one word, -- love. In this is perfection, and glory, and happiness. The royal law of heaven and earth is this, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength."
12. Not that this forbids us to love anything besides God: It implies that we love our brother also. Nor yet does it forbid us (as some have strangely imagined) to take pleasure in any thing but God. To suppose this, is to suppose the Fountain of holiness is directly the author of sin; since he has inseparably annexed pleasure to the use of those creatures which are necessary to sustain the life he has given us. This, therefore, can never be the meaning of his command. What the real sense of it is, both our blessed Lord and his Apostles tell us too frequently, and too plainly, to be misunderstood. They all with one mouth bear witness, that the true meaning of those several declarations, "The Lord thy God is one Lord;" "Thou shalt have no other Gods but me;" "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy strength" "Thou shalt cleave unto him;" "The desire of thy soul shall be to His name;" -- is no other than this: The one perfect Good shall be your one ultimate end. One thing shall ye desire for its own sake, -- the fruition of Him that is All in All. One happiness shall ye propose to your souls, even an union with Him that made them; the having "fellowship with the Father and the Son;" the being joined to the Lord in one Spirit. One design you are to pursue to the end of time, -- the enjoyment of God in time and in eternity. Desire other things, so far as they tend to this. Love the creature as it leads to the Creator. But in every step you take, be this the glorious point that terminates your view. Let every affection, and thought, and word, and work, be subordinate to this. Whatever ye desire or fear, whatever ye seek or shun, whatever ye think, speak, or do, be it in order to your happiness in God, the sole End, us well as Source, of your being.
13. Have no end, to ultimate end, but God. Thus our Lord: "One thing is needful:" And if thine eye be singly fixed on this one thing, "thy whole body shall be full of light." Thus St. Paul: "This one thing I do; I press toward the mark, for the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus." Thus St. James: "Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye double-minded." Thus St. John: "love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." The seeking happiness in what gratifies either the desire of the flesh, by agreeably striking upon the outward senses; the desire of the eye, of the imagination, by its novelty, greatness, or beauty; or the pride of life, whether by pomp, grandeur, power, or, the usual consequence of them, applause and admiration; -- "is not of the Father," cometh not from, neither is approved by, the Father of spirits; "but of the world:" It is the distinguishing mark of those who will not have Him to reign over them.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/4/2010 8:08:39 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 5/4/2010 10:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/4/2010 10:14 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/4/2010 10:31 PM (GMT -6) | | KEY WORDS...
our acts...are included in
our free-will actions...contribute to God's providence in our lives.
Fr. Thomas Hopko explains how our acts, especially our prayers, are included in God's predestination based on His foreknowledge, and how our free-will actions, particularly our prayers, contribute to God's providence in our lives.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/5/2010 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce. Love the book. Thanks.
Can you fix the link, though? 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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