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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/12/2010 6:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I watched that Marvin Winans Perfecting Praise video that One Love put up on the "The Nail in the Coffin: The Ultimate Victory of God" thread.  I visit Perfecting Church every so often as I love to connect with my black brothers and sisters plus enjoy the music.  If any of you know about Marvin Winans, he is divorced from his wife Vicki of 16 years.  Neither I believe is remarried.  I know Marvin isn't.  After I watched that video, I came across this video.  THIS is straight UP!  I've hated the Bill Gothard stuff for years where he said mumbo jumbo stuff about treating a lady right and she'll treat you right.  This just ain't so in some cases.  And Vicki Winans was woman enough to pony up.  My respect level for this woman is just...wow.  It has been upped. We need women like her to be examples to the younger ones to teach them not sweat the small stuff.  Love you VICKI!!!


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 5/13/2010 11:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From Four, we experience Forgiveness, which is most simply the ability to let go of the events of the past and to move on with one's life. We stop clinging to old hurts and resentments, thereby opening up space in our hearts to be affected by people and events freshly, without the dense filters of emotional reactions leftover from our childhood. Rather than holding the world responsible for our frustrations, we begin to understand the forces in ourselves that perpetuate them. When we do this, we experience our lives and our identities as they truly are—that is, as a process, a flow.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/13/2010 11:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Reposts...
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Human beings, being in the image of God are designed for freedom and love as a natural state. We are designed to freely choose to give and recieve love...like God does.

When the human being chooses to love God, neighbor, and self...the human spirit "breathes" Grace via the Holy Spirit.

When (for whatever reason) the human being fails to choose to love...the human spirit begins to "asphyxiate" from lack of the Spirit...and begins "dying."
 
******************************************************

"[The definition of pattern of convictional knowing] resides in Christ and it's power in his Spirit, but its enactment is the particular "duty" of each one who has been so loved [by God].  I say "duty"--the word suggested by Kierkegaard for the motive that lies behing "works of love"--not to inflict moral conscience on a gracious act of the Spirit of God.  Rather, to continue to love as one has been loved [by God] is the only way to abide in the transformation effected by his Spirit.  This is what gives ultimate sanction to our claim that convictional knowing is the way of love; the only way to participate in it is to give love as it was given.  To fail to give love is implicitly to participate in self-destruction or in the destruction of the self as spirit."

James Loder
The Transforming Moment
"From Negation to Love"
Page 180

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Training the mind towards unconditionally loving God, neighbor, and self (Romans 12:1-2)...is to move away from self-destruction.

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One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house and took his place at the table. And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment,  and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner.” And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.”

 “A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.  When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?”  Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.  You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet.  You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.  Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”  Then those who were at table with him began to say among  themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?”  And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

[Thought: In our "hearts", in the "inward movement" before Christ's presence, we are to be like that woman.  Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. And just like that woman, we receive forgiveness of sins...and we go in (HIS) peace.


******************************


Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.   When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.   And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.  So the servant  fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii,  and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’  So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’  He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.  When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.  Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’  And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.  So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”


********************************


"And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors."

------------------------------------------------


I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.  Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.  I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him (Note: inward movement), he it is that bears much fruit (Note: outward movement), for apart from me you can do nothing.  If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.  As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.  If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.  You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant  does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/13/2010 11:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And it's all impossible without the Spirit of God empowering us to do it.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/14/2010 11:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've just have one question for ya.  Do you think unbelievers can forgive without actively seeking the Power of the Holy Spirit to do so?  I mean, what about "common grace" (which as Pinnock asked, "What's so common about it?).  Regardless, that grace at work in unbelievers. That's what I mean.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
Do you think unbelievers can forgive without actively seeking the Power of the Holy Spirit to do so? I mean, what about "common grace" (which as Pinnock asked, "What's so common about it?). Regardless, that grace at work in unbelievers. That's what I mean.

Remember what we're on: the EASTERN VIEW of Grace. Grace is inseparable from the Holy Spirit. Any Grace at work in ANY person is God the Holy Spirit HIMSELF working in them. Period.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK. The question still stands. My belief is that when unbelievers do something good such as forgive, though they are not confessing Christ, I think that is the Holy Spirit at work in them. In other words, even when we see this forgiveness and peace in relationships between nations, this is the Holy Spirit. Atheists want to say, something like, "Well I whethered that storm" and I didn't need God to do it" but thats crap. They are simply ignoring the activity of the Holy Spirit in their life.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dude, I really believe this. It's gonna be like the whole "Footprints" thing. People who have lived "without God" will be shown their life...and God the Holy Spirit's continual working in it. And they will see MANY TIMES the ONE set of footprints that was GOD HIMSELF carrying them.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
In other words, even when we see this forgiveness and peace in relationships between nations, this is the Holy Spirit.

That's EXACTLY RIGHT. Think about what REALIZING this could do for Christian MISSIONARY and POLITICAL WORK!!!!!


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We would do everything in our power not to "GRIEVE" the Spirit in our activities!!  It would be the LAST THING we'd want to do!  ;-)
 
Four Scriptural Principles (See Mk 12:28-34; Mt 25:31-46; Jn 8:54; See also 1 Cor. 13 and 1 Jn 4:7-21)
1) Loving God completely
2) Loving all humans self-sacrificially in light of loving God completely
3) Seeing all humans as "the least of these" (per Jesus) in loving God, one's neighbor, and oneself
4) Opposing self-exaltation or self-glorification of any type (per Jesus' character)
 
Axioms of "Kingdom of God" Effectiveness (Micah 6:6-8)
1) Doing humanizing justice
2) Loving kindness and compassion
3) Living righteously (truthfully, peacefully)
4) Walking with humility before all others


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/14/2010 12:17:36 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oooooo...that's good man...cha ching! Jackpot! Love it! Nice way of saying it! And many Christians (even) think that "Footprints' is a corny poem. Ha!


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seriously. Imagine if every Christian ASSUMED the Holy Spirit's direct personal working in each person and every situation they encountered...and sought to co-operate with whatever the Spirit was doing at the time?

What kind of Church would THAT be?  icon_smile_shock


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How about this? You'd have NEVER had the Inquisitions or the Crusades if the Christians in power had really had that belief back then.

Whachu think?

How you gonna torture someone on a rack or quarter someone if you REALLY BELIEVE that God HIMSELF is living and working in that person?

For real, for real!


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me get gutta real for a minute.

Do the International COPS FOR CHRIST believe that God Himself is present and personally working in each and every criminal that they encounter?

What do YOU think, Brandon?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just rethinking Grace, I think, could revolutionize the way the Church sees the universe. How CAN you see the universe as "just" the universe...when you know that God Himself is actively, personally present in absolutely everyTHING and everyONE you experience???

I just can't see how one can think the same way about life itself after really getting this in one's head.

Seeing all humans as "the least of these" (per Jesus) in loving God, one's neighbor, and oneself.

Feel me, B?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/14/2010 12:31:15 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OL: How about this? You'd have NEVER had the Inquisitions or the Crusades if the Christians in power had really had that belief back then.

Whachu think?

How you gonna torture someone on a rack or quarter someone if you REALLY BELIEVE that God HIMSELF is living and working in that person?

For real, for real!

Brandon: Gotta go to work for a couple of hours so I'll be back on this later.  But hmmmm...I really don't know. I would probably say no to something like that.  They would not do that.  However, at the same time I have to deal with finitude.  I also tend to think history bears this out again, on a societal level. Thats another level altogether.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 12:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here is the Christian version of Hinduism's Maya: The "illusory" belief that Creation is SEPARATE or SEPARABLE from the ONE Uncreated Spirit grounding it.  Christian "two-storey" belief.  Creation is infinitely DIFFERENTIATED from the Uncreated Creation, but never SEPARATE.

When one is freed from this "illusion" then one sees things as they really ARE.

You're not stuck in Mirageland anymore. You're in God's World.

Does that make sense?

"Surely, God was here...and I did not know it."


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/14/2010 12:45:59 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 5:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Wesley on "Grieving the Holy Spirit"

We are said to grieve the Holy Spirit by our sins, because of his immediate presence with us. They are more directly committed under his eye, and are, therefore, more highly offensive to him. He is pleased to look upon professing Christians as more peculiarly separated to his honour; nay, we are so closely united to him, that we are said to be "one spirit with him;" and, therefore, every sin which we now commit, besides its own proper guilt, carries in it a fresh and infinitely high provocation. "Know ye not your own selves," saith St. Paul, "that your bodies are the temples of the Holy Ghost?" And how are they so, but by his inhabitation and intimate presence with our souls? When, therefore, we set up the idols of earthly inclinations in our hearts, (which are properly his altar) and bow down ourselves to serve those vicious passions which we ought to sacrifice to his will, -- this must needs be, in the highest degree, offensive and grievous to him. "For what concord is there between" the Holy Spirit "and Belial? or what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?"

...

But if arguments of this kind are not strong enough to keep us from grieving our best Friend, the Holy Spirit of God, let us consider, that, by this ungrateful conduct, we shall provoke him to withdraw from us.

The truth of this, almost all who have ever tasted of the good gifts of the Holy Spirit must have experienced. It is to be hoped that we have had, some time or other, so lively a sense of his holy influence upon us, as that when we have been so unhappy as to offend him, we could easily perceive the change in our souls, in that darkness, distress, and despondency which more especially follow the commission of wilful and presumptuous sins. At those seasons, the blessed Spirit retired and concealed his presence from us, we were justly left to a sense of our own wretchedness and misery, till we humbled ourselves before the Lord, and by deep repentance and active faith obtained a return of divine mercy and peace.

And the more frequently we offend him, the more we weaken his influences in our souls. For frequent breaches will necessarily occasion estrangement between us; and it is impossible that our intercourse with him can be cordial, when it is disturbed by repeated interruptions. So a man will forgive his friend a great many imprudences, and some wilful transgresions; but to find him frequently affronting him, all his kindness will wear off by degrees; and the warmth of his affection, even towards him who had the greatest share of it, will die away; as he cannot but think that such a one does not any longer either desire or deserve to maintain a friendship with him.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/14/2010 5:19:27 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/14/2010 5:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Refusing to abide in God's forgiveness (via refusing to forgive one's neighbor) "grieves" the Holy Spirit.

"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Here's a thought: When you think about how much we grieve God's Spirit ALL THE TIME...doesn't living the Jesus Prayer ALL THE TIME just make sense?  Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/14/2010 5:29:04 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/14/2010 9:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just want to go back to your question here:
 
OL: How about this? You'd have NEVER had the Inquisitions or the Crusades if the Christians in power had really had that belief back then.

Whachu think?

How you gonna torture someone on a rack or quarter someone if you REALLY BELIEVE that God HIMSELF is living and working in that person?

For real, for real!

I want to take an excerpt from a book put out by Mark Noll, Nathan Hatch and George Marsden called, "The Search For Christian America." Here is what they say on pages 43-46. What they say here should interact with what you are saying.  This is one of the reasons why what you are saying is hard to determine.

WHY THERE ARE NO CHRISTIAN CULTURES

What is left, then, of the myth of America's "Christian" origins? On the positive side we find that the Puritans approached the task of building a culture with some truly excellent principles and many apparently good motives. Christianity accordingly appears to have had positive influences on early New England culture. Such a claim, however, is considerably less than saying that the culture was essentially "Christian" in a strict sense or even that it had an essentially "Christian" base.

The reason why the Puritans and all similar groups have failed to establish a "Christian culture" seems clear—although the advocates of "Christian culture" appear to ignore it. At the base of every human culture is a shared set of "religious" values that help hold the society together. These values are not simply those of the official organized religion of the culture (although usually such a religion strongly supports such value systems). They are rather those ideals or things that persons in a culture value most highly, are committed to, and would be willing to die for. Most of the traits of this central "religion" in a culture reflect directly the values that predominate in fallen human nature. So, for instance, one factor that we find holding cultures together everywhere is sinful pride. This pride might be manifested in any one of a number of ways, but among the most common have been tribalism, racism, nationalism, and an inflated loyalty to one's own class or social position. Each is a means of convincing a people that they are inherently superior to other peoples and hence that they can treat others as inferiors, even as subhumans worthy of disdain or abuse. Similarly, every human culture is held together by the simple shared values of selfish interest. Putting oneself and one's group first is, in fact, almost the premise on which human governments are based. Other widely held values found in almost every culture are materialism, lust for power, and love of violence. While cultures may be held together also by other values— such as love or respect for elders, respect for law, love of virtue— most of the widely held values related to human nature turn out to be directly antithetical to Christianity.

What happens, then, when Christianity is introduced into such a culture on a large scale? First of all, if the "Christianization" is more than just a formality, many persons in the civilization may live lives radically transformed by God's grace. If sin is substantially reduced in the lives of such saints who control the government, the society may be transformed into something that is reasonably Christian in the narrowest sense—except for some areas that might be missed due to blind spots, misinformation, or prejudices of the age. However, in no society of any considerable size has the overwhelming majority of citizens ever been radically committed Christians. Furthermore, even the greatest saints fail to overcome fully in this life such sins as pride and self interest, and often even materialism, lust for power, and the love of violence. So a civilization, even if it contains many true Christians, will retain these nearly universal human traits. The introduction of Christianity will indeed improve the civilization since many persons and some resulting cultural activities and institutions will be shaped by ideals more or less in conformity with God's will.

Alongside the sinful tendencies at the core of civilization may be important positive tendencies to which Christianity contributes.  Hendrikus Berkhof, for instance, has argued that the coming of Christ introduced into Western culture a new concept of the importance suffering and the oppressed. "An ordinary street scene, as an ambulance stopping all traffic because one wounded man must be transported, is the result of the coming of the Kingdom." These and similar observations as to Christianity's impact on culture have considerable credibility. Yet it is important to emphasize, as Berkhof does, that these are at best only harbingers of the Kingdom. "They are the crocuses in the winter of a fallen world."

When Christianity is linked as closely to society as Puritanism was to colonial America, it can transform aspects of culture; yet on any huge scale or in the long run such transformation will be severely limited by other forces at the base of a society. The gains, although real, will almost always be ambiguous, since in many cases Christianity will be amalgamated with the various anti-Christian forces that distort the foundations of any society. Such ambiguities become particularly strong if the society comes to regard itself as more or less officially "Christian." In such cases the name of Christianity will be superimposed on a culture that retains some essentially anti-Christian features.

Puritan culture, then, for all its merits, can hardly qualify as Christian culture. This by no means is to condemn the Puritans for in many ways they present an attractive and successful example of applying Christianity to cultural activities. Yet just because of this degree of success, they are an excellent example of the inherent limits in attempting to establish a model Christian culture.

What can we say then about the positive "Christian" influences on culture other than that it does good for individuals? Certainly Chrisity brings many broad, obviously good influences, as when family lives are improved, charity is displayed, the poor are cared for, high moral standards are pursued, just laws are enacted, personal wealth is properly valued, minorities and outsiders are regarded as persons in God's image—all because of more-or-less proper understandings of God's Word. Yet such influences do not result automatically from the presence of apparently sincere Christians in a culture. The equation between the number of Christians in a society and the positive cultural results is never a simple one. Often, in fact, the positive influences seem not to predominate. To resolve these apparent paradoxes it may be helpful to use the image of the salt of the earth. That is, Christianity acts as a retardant against the natural tendencies of cultures built on sinful human nature to fall into decay. Such Christian influences are not always obvious, but they may be crucial.

These observations have important implications not only for assessing Christian influences in the past, but for our own cultural task. We may speak, as many Christians do, of that transformation which H. Richard Niebuhr described as "Christ the transformer of culture. " But as we do, we must retain a realistic view of the limited and often ambiguous accomplishments of Christians in the past. We should be reminded also that we ourselves do not have the final blueprints for establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. We should recognize that we are no more careful students of God's will than were the Puritans, and we are no more exempt from misreading that will than they were. The relationship between Christianity and culture is always reciprocal. The culture transforms the Christian at the same time the Christian transforms the culture. Hence as we assume our responsibilities for the "transformation of culture," we should do so with an equal appreciation for the view that Niebuhr describes as "Christ and culture in paradox.''

Yet the combination of these two views does not reduce the urgency or the necessity of our cultural task. If anything, we should use such obligations to apply our Christianity to all areas of life even more urgently. Yet as we do so, we should recognize that the positive effects of Christianity are basically those of mitigating the fundamentally distorted character of human cultural life. Although the principles of the Kingdom are anticipated by Christian life in this age, anything even vaguely like the full-orbed reality of the Kingdom in the progress of culture must await another age.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 5/15/2010 12:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's make a difference between "Christendom" and "Christianity." Christianity, in the essence, would see the priority of God the Holy Spirit in Creation's workings...and live accordingly. Christians are people who "see" God and Creation through the Holy Spirit having the "mind of Christ", not merely a cultural phenomenon. Christendom deals with more with cultural influence than the Presence of the Holy Spirit in Creation in general, and within them in particular.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/15/2010 12:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What happens, then, when Christianity is introduced into such a culture on a large scale? First of all, if the "Christianization" is more than just a formality, many persons in the civilization may live lives radically transformed by God's grace.

I cannot explain how important it is to understand what the author MEANS by saying "transformed by God's grace."

What does he MEAN by "God's Grace"?   How does he understand that?  Do you know, Brandon?  Does he say elsewhere?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/16/2010 7:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, let's remember something OL.  You're saying that if all Christians were to believe that everyone had the Spirit of God in them then such and such a thing would not happen i.e. the Inquisitions.  But this seems to be pretty simplistic thinking.  If we were to talk about this in regard to some other issue, say less drastic, it isn't all that clear what road one may take.  Here is what the authors said.  It may not address what you are looking for specifically, but I think to some degree it can inform it.
 

Working with Non-Christians: Common Grace

A difficult question yet remains. Is there, any longer, any basis for such constructive political discourse between Christians and nonChristians, particularly on crucial moral questions? The situation today, it is sometimes said, differs from that of the early republic in that then there was a "Christian consensus," or, more accurately, a consensus that included a synthesis of Christian and Enlightenment views of higher moral law. In such a setting Christians and secularists could assume many of the same rules and principles. Today the situation appears very different. Even the definitions of law and truth differ for the Christian and the radical secularist. Law, says the secularist, is determined sociologically and "truth" is relative to time and place. Should we despair, then, of finding a basis for cooperation with secularists in publiclife? Should we declare with Tim LaHaye that "humanists are not qualified for public office or to receive taxpayer support for children under the guise of public education?"" Must we have it out with the secular humanists to the bitter end in the attempt to establish a government based on the Bible alone?

This choice, so often posed to Christians today is a false one. We do not live in a world in which all Christians will line up on one side of each public moral issue and all secularists on the other. Many theories today, both those of Christians and of secularists would seem to predict otherwise. Some Christians speak as though there is an absolute antithesis between Christian and non-Christian thought neglecting the degree to which Christians themselves are hampered by sin and error, and the degree to which God's common grace allows substantial room for communication and cooperation among all people in practical everyday life. Secularists who accept the radical tenets of relativism make the same mistake. If truth, law, and morality are relative to time, culture, and individual, how can the secularist expect to find any basis for society, since some moral consensus is surely necessary for its survival? In fact, there turns out to be more of a common basis of human beliefs and values than such relativism would suggest. So even Christians and secularists, who may be radically opposed in first principles, often find room for practical agreement and cooperation. Christians are not so consistent in regarding God's law, nor are non-Christians so consistent in disregarding it for the antithesis between them to be so sharp as we might think.

Christians should not be surprised by this commonality. We are taught, after all, that God's law is written on the hearts of humanity, even if suppressed (Romans 1 and 2). We all live in the same world. God has created laws for living that no one can entirely ignore or escape. Even though it may be plausibly argued that there is no basis for objective knowledge of reality, nonetheless in practical living we all must observe the God-created laws of nature, as when we fly airplanes or pick mushrooms. Similarly, while many of today's thinkers suppose that there is no common base for morality in nature or human nature, in fact no one is entirely free from recognizing the constraints of the moral universe God has created.

Because we all live in God's world, we have, in God's common grace, some basis for discussing and shaping public policy without explicit appeal to the Bible. In fact, people from all the nations of the world have been able to agree on many principles of justice and human interest, as for instance, in agencies and statements of the United Nations. That they violently disagree on other points or on the application of their common principles should not obscure this degree of commonality. So Christians and non-Christians may be able to agree on the charity toward the poor and the starving, on the undesirability of genocide, that literacy should be encouraged, on the virtue of loyalty to friends and parents, and on many other things. To be sure, the "light of nature," as America's founding fathers called it, may not be nearly as bright as they supposed. Moreover, there may be, as Augustinians have often argued, a qualitative difference between virtue motivated by love to God and the relatively good that is motivated by other principles. Nonetheless, America's founders were wise in recognizing that the Creator had not left the race so absolutely blind that only those who appealed directly to Scripture were fit to determine public policy.

For Christians, however, the Bible still will play a major role in shaping our approaches to the moral-political issues of the day. Scripture will lead us more directly than will any secular ethical system alone to understanding the principles of God's law. Nonetheless, as we approach these issues we can be sure that if we have correctly identified a biblical principle that should bear upon public policy, that principle will be capable of defense on grounds in addition to the sheer appeal to the authority of Scripture.

Christians will not always persuade fellow citizens "who suppress the truth by their wickedness" (Rom. 1 :18). Nonetheless we have in our common experiences with God's created order some basis for discussion. Even on the question of abortion, the most divisive public issue of the day, Christians and non-Christians can agree that the killing of innocent people is wrong. They disagree not so much on the moral principle, but rather on their willingness or unwillingness to admit that abortion is the killing of innocent people. When it comes to nuclear disarmament or gun control, moreover, the sides are often reversed. Secularists will talk of the sanctity of human life, while some Christians, especially politically conservative evangelicals, will speak about the need to defend freedom. These issues will not be easily resolved; but we do have some basis for discourse without simply bringing the political and legal system "back to the Bible."


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 5/16/2010 7:56:31 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/17/2010 10:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Love = tenderness = vulnerability = betrayal = hurt = suffering = fear = anger = walls and locks = isolation = loneliness = sickness = coldness = despair = CHOICE... between Loving again or safety of the grave


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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One Love
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   Posted 5/17/2010 10:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dude...why'd you hit in on the nail with a jackhammer?

Awesome. ;-)


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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