Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 7:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

The word of the Lord came to me:  “Son of man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke; yet you shall not mourn or weep, nor shall your tears run down.  Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.”  So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died. And on the next morning I did as I was commanded.

 And the people said to me, “Will you not tell us what these things mean for us, that you are acting thus?”  Then I said to them, “The word of the Lord came to me:  ‘Say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the pride of your power, the delight of your eyes, and the yearning of your soul, and your sons and your daughters whom you left behind shall fall by the sword.  And you shall do as I have done; you shall not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.  Your turbans shall be on your heads and your shoes on your feet; you shall not mourn or weep, but you shall rot away in your iniquities and groan to one another. Thus shall Ezekiel be to you a sign; according to all that he has done you shall do. When this comes, then you will know that I am the Lord God.’

“As for you, son of man, surely on the day when I take from them their stronghold, their joy and glory, the delight of their eyes and their soul's desire, and also their sons and daughters,  on that day a fugitive will come to you to report to you the news.  On that day your mouth will be opened to the fugitive, and you shall speak and be no longer mute. So you will be a sign to them, and they will know that I am the Lord.”

--------------------------------------------

Matthew Henry is pretty good with this one...

Verses 15-27

These verses conclude what we have been upon all along from the beginning of this book, to wit, Ezekiel's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem; for after this, though he prophesied much concerning other nations, he said no more concerning Jerusalem, till he heard of the destruction of it, almost three years after, ch. 33:21. He had assured them, in the former part of this chapter, that there was no hope at all of the preventing of the trouble; here he assures them that they should not have the ease of weeping for it. Observe here,

I. The sign by which this was represented to them, and it was a sign that cost the prophet very dear; the more shame for them that when he, by a divine appointment, was at such an expense to affect them with what he had to deliver, yet they were not affected by it

1. He must lose a good wife, that should suddenly be taken from him by death. God gave him notice of it before, that it might be the less surprise to him (v. 16): Behold, I take away from thee the desire of thy eyes with a stroke. Note, (1.) A married state may very well agree with the prophetical office; it is honourable in all, and therefore not sinful in ministers. (2.) Much of the comfort of human life lies in agreeable relations. No doubt Ezekiel found a prudent tender yoke-fellow, that shared with him in his griefs and cares, to be a happy companion in his captivity. (3.) Those in the conjugal relation must be to each other not only a covering of the eyes (Gen. 20:16), to restrain wandering looks after others; but a desire of the eyes, to engage pleasing looks on one another. A beloved wife is the desire of the eyes, which find not any object more grateful. (4.) That is least safe which is most dear; we know not how soon the desire of our eyes may be removed from us and may become the sorrow of our hearts, which is a good reason why those that have wives should be as though they had none, and those who rejoice in them as though they rejoiced not, 1 Co. 7:29, 30. Death is a stroke which the most pious, the most useful, the most amiable, are not exempted from. (5.) When the desire of our eyes is taken away with a stroke we must see and own the hand of God in it: I take away the desire of thy eyes. He takes our creature-comforts from us when and how he pleases; he gave them to us, but reserved to himself a property in them; and may he not do what he will with his own? (6.) Under afflictions of this kind it is good for us to remember that we are sons of men; for so God calls the prophet here. If thou art a son of Adam, thy wife is a daughter of Eve, and therefore a dying creature. It is an affliction which the children of men are liable to; and shall the earth be forsaken for us? According to this prediction, he tells us (v. 18), I spoke unto the people in the morning; for God sent his prophets, rising up early and sending them; then he thought, if ever, they would be disposed to hearken to him. Observe, [1.] Though God had given Ezekiel a certain prospect of this affliction coming upon him, yet it did not take him off from his work, but he resolved to go on in that. [2.] We may the more easily bear an affliction if it find us in the way of our duty; for nothing can hurt us, nothing come amiss to us, while we keep ourselves in the love of God.

2. He must deny himself the satisfaction of mourning for his wife, which would have been both an honour to her and an ease to the oppression of his own spirit. He must not use the natural expressions of sorrow, v. 16. He must not give vent to his passion by weeping, or letting his tears run down, though tears are a tribute due to the dead, and, when the body is sown, it is fit that it should thus be watered. But Ezekiel is not allowed to do this, though he thought he had as much reason to do it as any man and would perhaps be ill thought of by the people if he did it not. Much less might he use the customary formalities of mourners. He must dress himself in his usual attire, must bind his turban on him, here called the tire of his head, must put on his shoes, and not go barefoot, as was usual in such cases; he must not cover his lips, not throw a veil over his face (as mourners were wont to do, Lev. 13:45), must not be of a sorrowful countenance, appearing unto men to fast, Mt. 6:18. He must not eat the bread of men, nor expect that his neighbours and friends should send him in provisions, as usually they did in such cases, presuming the mourners had no heart to provide meat for themselves; but, if it were sent, he must not eat of it, but go on in his business as at other times. It could not but be greatly against the grain to flesh and blood not to lament the death of one he loved so dearly, but so God commands; and I did in the morning as I was commanded. He appeared in public, in his usual habit, and looked as he used to do, without any signs of mourning. (1.) Here there was something peculiar, and Ezekiel, to make himself a sign to the people, must put a force upon himself and exercise an extraordinary piece of self-denial. Note, Our dispositions must always submit to God's directions, and his command must be obeyed even in that which is most difficult and displeasing to us. (2.) Though mourning for the dead be a duty, yet it must always be kept under the government of religion and right reason, and we must not sorrow as those that have no hope, nor lament the loss of any creature, even the most valuable, and that which we could worst spare, as if we had lost our God, or as if all our happiness were gone with it; and, of this moderation in mourning, ministers, when it is their case, ought to be examples. We must at such a time study to improve the affliction, to accommodate ourselves to it, and to get our acquaintance with the other world increased, by the removal of our dear relations, and learn with holy Job to bless the name of the Lord even when he takes as well as when he gives.

-----------------------------------------------

Talk about having a "single eye" towards God.  Lord, help.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/20/2010 7:59:09 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 7:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thought:

Abiding in God's love through inner "self-denial" FREES ONE from egocentric desires (love of the world) for works of "self-sacificial disinterestedness" such that God the Father is glorified by one's "good works" (love of the Father).

Bottom line: The only reason that Ezekiel was able to deny himself in the face of such utter personal loss is because of his love for God, which empowered him to obey God. God was his "Rock."

Lord, help me to get this.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 8:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's where the denial of "absolute self-ownership" (via relation to one's Creator) is important. Regardless of what I think I possess, God ACTUALLY owns it...and has the complete right to re-allocate or remove whatever resources I possess. I have no claim on myself or anyone else: we all belong to God. My wife is God's creation and daughter BEFORE she's my wife. I could die tomorrow...and she wouln't be a wife anymore. But she'd still be God's creation and daughter.

If I "lose someone" very important in my life, I don't have any real right to blame God for it. It's ALL Grace...and to deny that for the sake of grieving one's earthly experiences...well...

"To take the stand that God is at fault for the presence of evil is implicitly to lose one's relation to God since one now becomes God's judge, which is the very position of evil. Thus, to lose one's relationship to God is to lose one's self to evil; to remain agnostic where God and evil are concerned is to lose one's own soul by refusing to choose and implicitly to admit to having a love of God that can be qualified or negated by that which is not God--and thus to confess one neither loves or even knows God."

James Loder on Kierkegaard's "On the Edification Implied in the Fact that Before God We Are Always in the Wrong."


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/20/2010 8:13:36 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Asher
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 10:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Here's where the denial of "absolute self-ownership" (via relation to one's Creator) is important. Regardless of what I think I possess, God ACTUALLY owns it...and has the complete right to re-allocate or remove whatever resources I possess. I have no claim on myself or anyone else: we all belong to God. My wife is God's creation and daughter BEFORE she's my wife. I could die tomorrow...and she wouln't be a wife anymore. But she'd still be God's creation and daughter.

If I "lose someone" very important in my life, I don't have any real right to blame God for it. It's ALL Grace...and to deny that for the sake of grieving one's earthly experiences...well...

"To take the stand that God is at fault for the presence of evil is implicitly to lose one's relation to God since one now becomes God's judge"
---------------

1) What does ABSOLUTE self-ownership mean? If someone said "I own myself." and someone else said "I absolutely own myself" do they mean something different or the do they mean the same thing?

2) D:"Regardless of what I think I possess, God ACTUALLY owns it...and has the complete right to re-allocate or remove whatever resources I possess."

Does God ACTUALLY own a person's free will? Does He have the right to re-allocate or remove a person's free will? Isn't this why we can't say 100% to UR, because God DOES NOT actually own a person's ability to say "No" via their free will and hence God cannot remove that person's free will to make saying "Yes" to God a fait accompli?

3) D:"I have no claim on myself or anyone else: we all belong to God."

I submit that having a free will IS having a claim on oneself. And insomuch as man is responsible to act morally, men have claims on each other for exactly that. And...

Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

shows that we have a claim on God. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? And God does not protest Abraham's claim upon Him. He complies.

4) D:"to lose one's relation to God since one now becomes God's judge"

It is to lose one's PROPER relation to God, yes. But only if you mis-judge. To mis-judge God is to lay evil at His feet. Judgment per se is not the wrong. Judgment, when done justly, equitably, is ALWAYS a good. It applauds the good, giving it its due. It denies the evil. Clearly demarcating it as dangerous and allowing people to escape the influence of the evil. The problem is mis-judging God. When we judge God correctly, we will find:

"Taste and see that the Lord is good"

That is the only proper judgment of God.

No man UNTIL he has properly judged God will fall at God's feet crying "Lord"
Back to Top
 

Asher
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 10:26 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Here there was something peculiar, and Ezekiel, to make himself a sign to the people, must put a force upon himself and exercise an extraordinary piece of self-denial."

To even do the things that God required of Ezekiel means that the conditions I laid out in my previous post were all met:

Ezekiel had free will, thus owning himself, thus having a claim on himself...Ezekiel MADE HIMSELF a sign...Ezekiel PUT A FORCE UPON HIMSELF...Ezekiel EXERCISED self-denial. Ezekiel, himself, did those things. God did not make a puppet of Ezekiel.

And the reason that Ezekiel did those things...despite all the reasons why those things were not the norm, and were extremely difficult to enact upon oneself...was that Ezekiel had a prior judgment of God that God was good. God could be trusted. God had a work to accomplish and Ezekiel contributed to that work...because he judged God good.

Post Edited (Asher) : 5/20/2010 10:54:00 AM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 12:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1) I agree, Asher, that there is an irrevocably given "gift" of creaturely self-determination. I'm focussing on the radical "giftedness" of that "gift". It is continuously given to us by God...and we are STEWARDS of that "gift." Through we "possess" and use it as we choose, it STILL truly belongs to God as Creator. Whether we talk about Grace, Divine Energies, or Logoi, God truly DOES OWN us, even as we have real autonomy with respect to our relationship with God.

2) Human beings cannot appropriately "judge" God without some form of empowerment of the Holy Spirit.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

Asher
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 12:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When a gift is given, "irrevocably given", the gift becomes the property of the one it is given to. The phrase "continuously given" points out the ontological grounding, that EVERYTHING other than Godself has as a result of God acting. Perhaps there is a dual aspect to this that we need to recognize to get the whole picture. I certainly recognize the grounding and continuous activity of God that makes EVERYTHING possible. But once God decides to create, and to create in certain ways (free will conscious beings) then that puts strictures on God.

D:"God truly DOES OWN us, even as we have real autonomy"

If I make this statement. "God owns me. And I own myself." how is that statement different or the same as your statement above?

There are three people in this world that would not have been except for the activity ;-) of my wife and myself. But, I do not "own" those people. The relationship between me and those three, the complexity, the depth...cannot be described by a word such as "own" And I submit that the relationship between all people and God is of even greater complexity and depth...and that the word "own" used with reference to those relationships demeans both those people and God.

D:"Through we "possess" and use it as we choose, it STILL truly belongs to God as Creator."

To possess and to own something are closely related words. Why can you say "we possess", but cannot say "we own"?
Sometimes words reach their limit and we are left with more meaning than word...for example, the word "belong" is another closely related word to "possess" and "own". And I can say with ease "My wife belongs to me" but I cannot say with such ease "I own my wife" Look at the two words. "Belong" and "own" have different directional aspects. To say "I own my wife" and "I belong to my wife" do not mean the same thing. If "I" is the subject then putting "own" or "belong" after the subject greatly affects the meaning of the sentence. "I own" has a taking aspect about it. "I belong" has a giving aspect to it.
To say "I belong to God" is in effect to say...I own myself (I have taken the gift God gave me) and I have given myself to God.

D:"Human beings cannot appropriately "judge" God without some form of empowerment of the Holy Spirit."

There is something here that I have pointed out to you before that you still aren't getting. "Some form of empowerment of the Holy Spirit" must be assumed from the outset. There always already is "some form of empowerment of the Holy Spirit"...but men even in the presence of "some form of empowerment of the Holy Spirit" STILL mis-judge.

If there is a time when men are making judgments, and proper judgment requires Holy Spirit empowerment, and that empowerment is not offered...then men will make wrong judgments...and God will be partly to blame.

If there is a time when men are making judgments, and proper judgment requires Holy Spirit empowerment, and the empowerment is offered...

...then 1) men that appropriate the empowerment will make the proper judgment

...and 2) men that do not appropriate the empowerment will make the wrong judgment

If the empowerment is there in every case, then it is incumbent upon men to appropriate the empowerment. The empowerment is necessary but not sufficient.

Post Edited (Asher) : 5/20/2010 1:06:09 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 2:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Asher:  I submit that the relationship between all people and God is of even greater complexity and depth...and that the word "own" used with reference to those relationships demeans both those people and God.

 

“The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters.” (Psalm 24:1, 2)

Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. 12 Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all. 13 And now we thank you, our God, and praise your glorious name. (1 Chronicles 29: 11, 12)

Is this not "ownership" language, Asher?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 5/20/2010 2:27:19 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Asher
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 2:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Your missing the point, D. I'm not denying the "belongingness" of things to God. It's the "owningness" that I am denying. The directional fit MATTERS. To say that I "belong" to God does not deny that I "own" myself. The belongingness that God exercises over me is something I have entrusted to God.
Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 2:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How about this compromise, Asher: There is a DUAL, YET ASSYMETRICAL OWNERSHIP of the "self" before God. I really think stewardship is the best way to talk about it. Steward is defined as "a person who manages the property or affairs of another person." Your human dispositional reality is "gifted" to you by God Himself via Divine Energies. You are a "steward" of that "gift." You don't own it...you only manage it (rightly or wrongly) for God.

Feel me?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 4:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ah! Perfect analogy for "dual, assymetrical ownership" of something: Spiritual gifts in a Christian believer.

Yes, they are "possessed" by a human person but they are also fundamentally God Himself working in us. Both God AND the believer "own" the believer's spiritual gifts, but in any obviously assymetrical manner.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

Asher
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 4:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D, man, your paragraph is so linguistically cloudy that it's confusing.

Here:

"There is a DUAL, YET ASSYMETRICAL OWNERSHIP of the "self""

"You are a "steward" of that "gift." You don't own it...you only manage it (rightly or wrongly) for God."

In the one sentence we have dual ownership of the self, and in the next there is solitary ownership by God.


And stewardship of gifts, strictly speaking, doesn't work. From wikipedia "A gift or a present is the transfer of something without the expectation of receiving something in return. Although gift-giving might involve an expectation of reciprocity, a gift is meant to be free."



---------

"There is a DUAL, YET ASSYMETRICAL OWNERSHIP of the "self" before God."

Say, this, just this...and we have a beginning place. It still needs the definition of the ways in which each party exercises his ownership rights, but I have no problem with the statement as such.

There is a difference between "owningness" owning and "belongingness" owning that I think is crucial to recognize.

And,together with saying that we are stewards, we could just as easily say that God is a steward of the gift we give to Him. It is asymmetrical in that God initiates the chain, but the responsibility runs both ways.

Problems with that so far?
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 5:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Asher,

I think D's just changing up the vocab to find a way to express it that you both agree on. I can express things one way but then be influenced by the conversation to express things differently. But anyhow...

I don't think we have "rights" at all. And I don't believe we "own" our "selves" before God. When I think of "ownership" I think of having exclusive rights to something. And I don't think of the sense in which I "possess" my "self" in such terms. God, on the other hand, does have exclusive rights to all created things by virtue of the creator-created relation. All is obligated to God. God is obligated to none. It's God "to whom and for him and through whom are all things." In my view that relativizes all creaturely possession to stewardship.

But this may all be semantic. Not sure. You agree we're not self-existent beings, that God sustains our existence and that our existence is sheer gift. That's enough for me to avoid talk of "ownership." But these same facts are what suggest to you that we DO "own" our "selves" (since those selves are truly "given" ). So we're probably operating with different understandings of ownership and stewardship. It seems that for you to "receive a gift" means "to come to own the gift." And you may be thinking that whatever is both not God and free to self-dispose under its own intrinsic powers necessarily "owns" itself, i.e., owns those powers and dispositions.

I'd say we "possess" the gift the way a steward possesses and disposes of what's entrusted to him, but I wouldn't say we "own" the gift. In the end, "stewarding" and "owning" are distinct forms of "possessing" something, and I could never deny that I'm a "steward" of my life. So I can never get to the sort of ownership that is distinct from stewardship.

But if we dug around enough I think we'd find that we agree more than disagree. Stewardship seems a better word that gets at what it is we're free and responsible to care for in God's sight. But I wouldn't say God is a steward of what we offer him (by way of faithful stewardship). That implies God's responsible to us and liable to us for just rewards and punishments at our discretion, at which point things really start falling apart.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 5/20/2010 5:57:32 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 5:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I like the analogy to spiritual gifts VERY much.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 5:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah...what Tom said.

;-)


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

Asher
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 5:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom,

Here is part of the conversation from another thread:
------------
Asher: "To own something means that you can legitimately make use of it.

It is debatable whether God intends by creation to retain sole ownership of creation. Especially in light of the fact that He doesn't NEED any part of creation to sustain Himself. I think that the investiture of free will at least points toward the possibility of ownership of creation by creatures. If by ABSOLUTE you mean that no part of creation can be so owned by other than God so that that part of creation is ripped from God's realm...then yeah, I agree with you that ABSOLUTE self-ownership or ABSOLUTE ownership of anything else is ridiculous. But I think you mean something else than that, and that's where we will probably disagree.

Self-ownership is proven methodologically. In other words, the only method whereby my higher human faculties can be activated is the self. I think. I intend. I will. I do. And no one can absolutely force me to engage those faculties if I don't want to. You can threaten me, and under duress, I might do what you want me to do...but it is still me that has to do the activating of those faculties. You cannot think for me, intend for me, will for me, or do for me. I own those aspects of myself so fully that I am the only one that can engage them. That is a large part of what it means to BE me."


D:"AND it can be said that the Creator owns everything that has been created, then we CANNOT own ourselves. Period."

Asher: "This doesn't follow at all. Self-ownership is what is keeping that last soul in hell from making our mutual love of UR from being 100% The creature rejects God. God respects the rejection. God doesn't own that one. All creatures owned by God are bond, love-slaves...that have bonded THEMSELVES to God."
------------------

I think the very fact of free will is concurrent with self-ownership. To say that I have free will and that I do not "own" myself...cognitive dissonance.

I acknowledge the asymmetrical aspect of dual ownership that I outlined before, but to say that I have NO ownership in my own being...just sounds like traditional Christian propaganda to me. It's suppose to be an a display of humility before God, but I don't see it as that. I don't think saying "I own myself" unduly exalts me in any way. Nor does it unseat God in the least. I believe it is what is entailed in the creation of free will conscious beings. There may be some semantic tangles disrupting the conversation...but, how is your adamant stance for libertarian free will any different than this...in my mind, they are the SAME or different aspects of the SAME thing.
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 6:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Asher: "To own something means that you can legitimately make use of it."

Tom: But that fails to distinguish between ownership and stewardship or even renting something. I may "legitimately" make use of what I rent without owning it, or of what I'm placed in charge of as a steward, again, without owning it. Would you agree that "stewardship" and "ownership" are both distinct forms of "legitimately making use of a thing"? So being able to make legitimate use of a thing can't entail owning that thing.

Asher: If by ABSOLUTE you mean that no part of creation can be so owned by other than God so that that part of creation is ripped from God's realm...then yeah, I agree with you that ABSOLUTE self-ownership or ABSOLUTE ownership of anything else is ridiculous.

Tom: Then doesn't that relativize all the senses in which we might try to employ the concept of "self-ownership" to some other absolute form...like absolute stewardship? I think so. Our stewardship of something can be absolute (i.e., irreducible). Our ownership of something can't be. It can always be reduced to some more fundamental relation. So "stewardship" gets closer to the core for me.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 5/20/2010 6:25:29 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 6:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BUT...having said that...

...if we three (you, D, and I) were to drop the words "own" (and cognates) and "steward" (and cognates) and express ourselves, say, in terms of what we're 'free to' and 'capable of' and 'responsible to' do before God with these "selves" that we are, I really think we'd agree 100%. So my conclusion is that we're just employing these terms differently. What else could be behind the disagreement if we end up describing the same thing apart from these disputed terms?

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

Post Edited (Tom) : 5/20/2010 6:17:25 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 7:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Interesting. Just started this:

 

 

Paul J. Griffiths

Intellectual Appetite: A Theological Grammar (Catholic University, 2009)

 

The appetite for knowledge—wanting to know things—is very strong in humans. Some will sacrifice all other goods (sex, power, food, life itself) for it. But this is not a simple appetite, and this book treats some of its complications, deformations, beauties, and intensities.

 

Christian thinkers have traditionally distinguished between good and bad forms of the appetite for knowledge, calling the good “studiousness” and the bad “curiosity.” The former is aimed at joyful contemplation of what can be known as gift given; the latter seeks ownership and control of what can be known as property for the taking. Paul J. Griffiths’s Intellectual Appetite offers an extended study of the difference between the two, with special attention to the question of ownership: What is it like to think of yourself as the owner of what you know, and how might it be different to think of what you know as a gift given you?

How these questions are answered has a deep impact on a number of issues in contemporary educational and legal theory. Most fundamentally, there is the question of what it means to know something at all. On that, this book offers an account of knowledge in terms of intimacy: to know something (a mathematical formula, a past event, another human being, the lineaments of a galaxy) is to become intimate with it according to its kind.

There are also important and currently pressing ancillary questions; for example, that of what plagiarism is and how it should be addressed. Plagiarism is often understood in part as theft of intellectual property, and since it is essential to the argument of this book that seeking knowledge ought not to be understood as seeking ownership, the book offers a theological defense of plagiarism.


KIXYTΘEMTA

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/20/2010 9:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
if we three (you, D, and I) were to drop the words "own" (and cognates) and "steward" (and cognates) and express ourselves, say, in terms of what we're 'free to' and 'capable of' and 'responsible to' do before God with these "selves" that we are, I really think we'd agree 100%.

Agreed.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:34 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads