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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 9:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 5/24/2010 9:24 AM (GMT -6) | | | Self-reference is that which grounds the most individual experience of "I am" and the capacity to say "WHAT" I am and what I am NOT. The capacity to identify or disidentify with one's environment. The capacity to misrelate oneself TO oneself.
Throughly GROUNDED in human experience. Can't imagine any type of rational egoism OR rational self-other relationship without it.
I believe it's a part of the Imago Dei...and it's irrevocably given to every sentient RWE "spirit" beings.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 9:31:18 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 9:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Here the question:
Thinking about the incorporeal aspects of a spirit being with sentience and RWE, is there any form of self-determination that a given spirit being can enact that would eliminate all possibility for self-referential activity in pre-choice self-awareness, self-knowledege and movement toward enduring identity ( "I" ).
In short, what could Satan self-determine of himself...such that his innermost drive to be a "self" before God (however defiant and spiteful currently) would be irrevocably extinguished? By what choices could Satan commit such "spiritual suicide"? Does anyone have any possible ideas?
Please remember. Given everything we've been saying, Satan cannot extinguish the possibility of God-ward movement in his deepest "self" via Divine Presence. He can't stop being "before God." I'd like to also say that Satan cannot extinguish the possibility of further self-referential activity unto being an "I" before the Uncreated "Thou", God. What this means is that Satan cannot commit spiritual hari-kari by either 1) irrevocable elimination of possible further relationship with God or 2) irrevocable removal of the all potential for the creaturely "I am" within himself. The only way that Satan could be then be annihilated would be for God to just POOF...stop sustaining his creation by fiat.
But if Satan IRREVOCABLY has the potential to "perceive and enjoy" God forever as a creaturely "I" to the Uncreated "Thou"...why would God destroy a being with such immutable POTENTIAL to forever glorify and enjoy God's Beauty?
Can you think of a reason? 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 10:04:34 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/24/2010 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | As stated before--irrationality. Irrationality based on some real or percieved need to defy God. But, if love is in the house, then it would seem to be a cure for that need such that even it would not be a good reason.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
As stated before--irrationality. Irrationality based on some real or percieved need to defy God. But, if love is in the house, then it would seem to be a cure for that need such that even it would not be a good reason.
Exactamundo.
So, taking everything into account, there goes any annihiliationism OR ECT, right?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 12:09:41 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | Make sense, y'all?
There are only 3 real options in Christianity, as I see it. (ECT, annihilationism, and UR). If "who God is" (God is Love), "what God intends" for the Uncreated/Created relationship (Greg's Aesthetic Argument) and our irrevocability of creaturely self-reference and self-determination (definitional dispositions of creaturely personal beings) all--taken together--- metaphysically require that ECT and annihiliation cannot obtain because all creaturely sentient RWE spirit beings have the irrevocable ability to "perceive and enjoy" the Beauty of Divine Presence as an creaturely "I am" forever...
then what option is left? 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 1:22:17 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/24/2010 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Spoilers. I rented a vampire movie yesterday starring Ethan Hawke and William Dafoe, "Daybreakers" in which a twist in this genre occurs--vampires actually turn back to being human. The cure, like the cure for polio, is in fact the virus. In this case? The sun. After that, if a vampire takes the blood of someone turned back, they themselves become human. Interestingly, Ethan Hawke has to go through a firey process of being exposed to bursts of sunlight inside of a wine vat to be healed of his vampirism. So if any annihilation occurs it is more with WHAT is annihilated not WHO.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 1:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
So if any annihilation occurs it is more with WHAT is annihilated not WHO.
That's EXACTLY right. Only the vampirish, FALSE SELF is destroyed...not the TRUE self in God.
Hear Greg's sermon for this week! "Empowering Love"
Says it ALL! He makes a great analogy of God being like the Sun...
Excellent analogy, Brandon. Now I wanna see the movie! 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 1:26:49 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/24/2010 1:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Will be listening to it later today. Thanks for the link. What is also interesting about "Daybreakers" is that Ethan Hawke and others are RESTORED. Mind you, the movie has some flaws, but the most vivid scene (for me) was Ethan Hawke in that wine vat. That blew me away. It was such a picturesque understanding of what hell would be like. And lets remember again, hell won't be actually flames (as it was in the movie) but it is a "firey process" most definitely.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Daniel. You are one of the resident annihilationists. Is what's being said above making sense to you?
For you, Daniel. Can you give me some metaphysically viable way that a created, incorporeal, sentient being like the angel, Satan, can irrevocably eradicate his potential for 1) any further Godward movement (God as ultimate "Thou" ) and 2) any further exercise of self-reference? (created self as "I" ). If you can't, then I don't see how created beings can self-determine their way into absolute annihilation before Divine Presense. Basically, committing "spiritual suicide" such that no further relationship with God or self is possible. I can see God annihilating them via divine fiat. But if Satan (and all creaturely sentient beings) has the IRREVOCABLE potential to provide God (and themselves) with beautiful experience through "percieiving and enjoying" God forever, God would be absolutely IRRATIONAL to annihilate a being with such potential. In short, God would be working against HIS OWN self-interest...and that of all sentient created persons by annihilating Satan. The more created voices that come to praise God, the better it is for EVERYONE.
See what I'm saying? See it, Brandon? Tom? Corey? Similtude?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 3:41:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 3:43 PM (GMT -6) | | | Dude, you said it. Any time that we would spend in hell would NECESSARILY be FINITE, and relativized into virtual meaninglessness before our "infinity forward" with God in Eternal, Infinite Love, Joy, and Peace.
You argued that to me, remember? 
But, like you, I don't think it will take very long. Especially not for those who are WILLING to go through the purgation process here, now, in THIS life...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/24/2010 3:44 PM (GMT -6) | | | OL: Basically, committing "spiritual suicide" such that no further relationship with God or self is possible.
Brandon: What would we have left is such were the case? What would be left of the "self?" I'd think we'd have nothing but a person living in some state of pyschosis.
Mark 5
1And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
14And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 3:48 PM (GMT -6) | | | Psychosis asserts my point exactly. In psychosis, there is a fragmentation of self such that relationship to the "lived world" is pretty near impossible. However, the PSYCHOTIC HIMSELF is an example of self-referential activity in the human mind/brain. And no amount of psychosis can bring the psychotic to a place where her capacity for "I-ness" in their mind/brain relationship to the self is annihilated. Psychosis is MISRELATION of the self to oneself and their environment...not ANNIHILATION of the self. One doesn't lose the potential for self-reference or self-determination JUST BECAUSE one is psychotic and detached from reality. Feel me?
If you think about it, Romans 1 makes total sense with this. If God is the ultimate reality, then any misrelationship to God IS going towards psychotic and/or neurotic thoughts and behaviors concerning the God-world relationship.
Frankly, Satan's crazy as a loon...insofar as he actively seeks to "spitefully use" God as his ground.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 3:51:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/24/2010 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Which is why that man in Mark 5 can be restored to his right mind. The self is still left intact. It would still be a miserable existence though. 
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 3:56 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/24/2010 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey, you won't hear any of this on conservative Christian talk radio.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 4:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I sure hope universalism is true, because I don't wanna spend that long in hell.
Hope? If Love requires Freedom...and Freedom requires Self-Reference (which I will argue)...and if Greg's Aesthetic Argument is sound (I believe it is)...then EUR is metaphysically grounded. The metaphysical "price tag" of God creating personal subjects (creaturely "I ams" ) was having a creaturely being with the irrevocable capacity to MISRELATE in it's self-referential relationship such that relationships to God and self are dysfunctional. God couldn't take away the possibility of a created being "curving in on itself", as Greg would say. But the metaphysical price tag ALSO includes the irrevocable capacity to percieve and enjoy Divine Presence in and through it's self-referential activity. In other words, no matter how much the created being "curves in on itself" egocentrically, she cannot change the fact that God Himself (Love) is in the center of that very self-curving self! There's nothing the sinful self can do about that...the sinful self can't stop God from offering love "from the inside." If God REALLY WANTED freely choosing, morally-responsible beings who could perceive and enjoy Divine Presence forever...he had to RISK some FINITE amount of misrelation inherent as potential in the creaturely self-referential capacity. And he did.
Make sense?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 4:16:23 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 5/24/2010 4:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Wow. That is freak'n right on man! The freedom to potentially (actually) misrelate!
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 4:18 PM (GMT -6) | | 1. Love Requires Freedom
By definition, love must be freely chosen. We are able to program computers to obey our commands perfectly, but we don’t consider them “loving.” They lack the capacity for love because they have no choice but to do what we say. Humans would be in the same category as computers if God merely “programmed” our actions. In order for creatures to be loving, they must have the freedom to do otherwise.
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ONE LOVE'S INSERT
2-esque. Freedom Requires Self-Reference
Freedom to choose or reject love requires the ability to relate oneself to oneself as a chooser or rejector of love. Without any ability to self-reference, there can be no capacity to have any level of self-awareness for the sake of choice, let alone personal identity of "who" the choice belongs to. The capacity to love cannot exist without a "self" who can have self-knowledge (and intentionality based on such) as the basis for the potential of choosing.
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2. Freedom Implies Risk
The freedom to choose or reject love constitutes a risk for God. Creatures may make choices that oppose his will for their lives and the lives of others. This risk is illustrated throughout Scripture, beginning with the Garden of Eden. Many of us have experienced the painful consequences of misused freedom in our own lives. God considered love to be well worth the risk inherent in giving his creatures freedom.
3. Risk Entails Moral Responsibility
God’s creatures are held responsible for how they use their freedom. We don’t hold computers responsible when they fail because their failure is ultimately the responsibility of their programmers. They could not do other than what they were programmed to do. Because we are free to choose or reject love, we can be held accountable for how our choices affect those around us.
4. Moral Responsibility is Proportionate to the Potential to Influence
The potential a creature has for love is proportionate to the creature’s potential for evil. The greater the creature’s potential for love, the greater risk their freedom entails, for they may choose to use their potential for evil instead. Greater potential also entails greater responsibility for how the potential is used.
5. Power to Influence is Irrevocable
Genuine freedom must be irrevocable. If it can be revoked, creatures cannot be held responsible for their use of it, nor can they fully realize their potential for love. Within the parameters of the freedom God gives creatures, God must tolerate evil. Since God is omnipotent, he is able to accomplish his will within these parameters without compromising his own integrity or limiting the potential of his creatures by revoking their freedom.
6. Power to Influence is Finite
God’s creatures are finite. Although their freedom cannot be revoked, it can be thought of as “probational.” The scope and duration of their freedom is conditioned by many variables and ultimately determined by God’s will. The warfare between God and creatures who choose to use their freedom for evil is not eternal. Christ will vanquish his enemies in the end and creatures will be completely free to participate in the triune love of God at last.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 4:26:50 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 5/24/2010 4:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
The freedom to potentially (actually) misrelate!.
Yessir, Brandon. A freedom that is BOUNDED by the assymetry of the Uncreated Spirit/Created Spirit relationship. I'm gonna argue that TWT 6 (The power to influence is finite) should be taken in light of the EO view of Grace. That is to say this: the scope and duration of creaturely freedom to misrelate to God is FUNDAMENTALLY CONDITIONED by the "original constitution" of creaturely self-referencing, self-determining beings, the "ongoing influence" of God's Personal Presence, and God's "intentions" for Creation ala the Aesthetic Argument. This "conditioning" renders it overwhelmingly probable (approaching 1) that "the warfare between God and creatures who choose to use their freedom for evil is not eternal."
In short, God cannot stop being God...and we cannot stop being creatures in God's image in God's Energies. Everything works out from that.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 5/24/2010 4:35:32 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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