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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
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| Posted 9/12/2010 3:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Now, what does the law require? Romans 13:9-10
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
So, the "law" is basically the Law of Love...right? Right.
Ok...a question for everyone...
So if a Buddhist lives by Metta (Lovingkindness), one of the 4 Immeasurables, and they do NOT have the law (ie they don't have Judeo-Christian Scriptures), but they "do what the law requires" (ie. Love their neighbor as themselves)...do you believe that on the day when "God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus", and the Buddhist's "conscience bear witness"...that the Buddhist's thoughts will either ACCUSE him or EXCUSE him?
What about a Muslim who genuinely seeks to "love the neighbor as oneself?" Would her thoughts ACCUSE or EXCUSE her, on that day?
Which do you think?
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2010 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Paul's clear. What he descrbies will happen. He doesn't unpack it more than that. It'd be nice to know how Paul would relate this 'judgment' via one's thoughts and conscience to the personal revelation of Jesus in the eschaton. How is the truth about JESUS going to be related to the truth about the sincerety, purity and honesty of one's own quest during this life? I ask because we want to say that IN THE END there's no final enjoyment of salvation that is not concretely PERSONAL in nature. The lost are saved by coming to KNOW A PERSON and not by having succeeded at always following their hearts.
It seems like C.S. Lewis' (Narnia's) "Tash" figure.
Emeth, who expects Tash to smite unbelievers with heavenly fire, goes searching for Tash in Aslan's Country, but instead meets Aslan. Aslan tells Emeth 'all the service thou hast done to Tash, I accept as service done to me' and further explains 'no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him'. He explains that Emeth's pious devotion was really to Aslan, rather than to Tash, although Emeth had not been aware of this, and Emeth finds great happiness in this revelation.
Basically, Tash is "saved" because he came to truly know the PERSON to whom his service and dedication was truly going. Same thing here. Any non-Christian who lives the law (loving your neighbor as yourself) would see that the PERSON they've actually been serving is Christ, the Eternal Word of God. "Whatever you've done to the least of these, you have done to Me."
Makes sense to me.
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Tom:
But Paul's other point is really important too. And that is that he doesn't suppose that ANY human being has succeeded in remaining truthful and pure on the level of conscience (the law written on our hearts). So ALL are condemned (either by written or unwritten law) as is. None righteous. No not one.
So whatever Paul has in mind about the Gentiles being 'excused' on the basis of the law written on their hearts, he doesn't imagine there to be a single person ever who isn't certainly 'accused' or condemned by that law. They may be 'excused' in this or that particular (like Christ excuses the seven church in particulars and condemns them in other particulars), but all stand condemned in other particulars, and that's the human problem, right?
That's nothing more than saying that every human being (save Jesus) has failed, at some point or another, to love the Creator, their neighbor, and/or themselves rightly. Therefore, all need Grace. No problem with that. At the same time, it seems that Paul believed that there would be SOMETHING for God to commend about the non-Jew...something that would "excuse" them on some level. And that "something" seems to be how much they align with the Law of Love: loving one's neighbor as oneself.
Sooooo...it is absolute foolishness to act like there is no possible redemptive qualities to be found in non-Judeo-Christian beliefs, ESPECIALLY if there is reason to believe that other beliefs actually have some form of loving one's neighbor as oneself. Christians can't hate on Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam JUST BECAUSE they ain't Christianity. Cause God doesn't do that.
Right?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 9/12/2010 5:03:55 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2010 5:32 PM (GMT -6) | | And wouldn't the "Tash" idea and Romans 2:12-16 go well with post-mortem evangelism? I think so. I imagine a Hindu Bhakta person who lives a life of love to others as himself through his devotion to Krishna. Say he dies...and at some point is raised up to stand before Jesus. This is how I see it going.
Jesus: Yo.
Bhakta: Yes?
Jesus: You know about all the devotion and loving others as yourself that you had been doing as service to Krishna?
Bhakta: Yes.
Jesus: Well, you really did it all for Me...you just didn't know it.
Bhakta: Oh.
Jesus: Soooo...is that a problem for you?
Bhakta: Are you truly the "Supreme Goal" as I thought Krishna was?*
Jesus: Yes. You see me here, right?
Bhakta: Well, if you are...then that's fine with me. I did what I did with the best of intentions.
Jesus: I know that. Cool.
Bhakta: Nice to meet you.
Jesus: Same here.
And there it is...
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*In the twelfth chapter of the Gita Krishna describes bhakti yoga as a path to the highest spiritual attainments. In the ninth chapter, he says,
Fill thy mind with Me, be My devotee, sacrifice unto Me, bow down to Me; thus having made thy heart steadfast in Me, taking Me as the Supreme Goal, thou shalt come to Me. (B-Gita 9.34)
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 9/12/2010 5:37:05 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/12/2010 9:11 PM (GMT -6) | | D: Sooooo...it is absolute foolishness to act like there is no possible redemptive qualities to be found in non-Judeo-Christian beliefs...
T: It's foolishness to pretend that human beings don't have within them intuitions that orient them Godward. But religious beliefs per se may or may not reflect this. I just mean that Paul's appealing to something DEEPER than is found on the level of RELIGIOUS BELIEF necessarily. It's in human NATURE as grounded in the image of God where this intuition is to be found. So we can't act as if we don't have THAT to build upon. BUT formal religions may or may not in fact deny and corrupt this deeper voice. See what I'm saying?
Agreed.
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D: ...ESPECIALLY if there is reason to believe that other beliefs actually have some form of loving one's neighbor as oneself.
T: Yeah, if and where the innate, intuitive voice of God is allowed to determine religious belief.
I'd say that, given looking at the mystical traditions of at least the Abrahamic traditions, that happens significantly.
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D: Christians can't hate on Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam JUST BECAUSE they ain't Christianity. Cause God doesn't do that.
T: I'm a bit less focused on BELIEF SYSTEMS and more interested in PEOPLE. So I'd say Christians can't hate on Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims. A bit different in emphasis, but sort of the same thing. Where the image of God that's in us all finds expression in those systems, I'm happy to affirm it. I just don't ASSUME that this image always finds its way to formal expression within a system of belief.
One doesn't have to assume it. All one has to do is research about the belief systems...and there will be ample "expressions" to find. That's probably why there's a form of the "Golden Rule" in virtually every major religious worldview.
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Tom:
Paul speaks for example of those who "have had their consciences seired" and are unable any longer to disceren the truth. God can treat that in the eschaton, but I can't imagine crossing a line of no return so far as this worldly context is concerned. Am I making sense?
Yep. I'd agree.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/14/2010 8:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Having their conscience seared with a hot iron - The allusion here is doubtless to the effect of applying a hot iron to the skin. The cauterized part becomes rigid and hard, and is dead to sensibility. So with the conscience of those referred to. It has the same relation to a conscience that is sensitive and quick in its decisions, that a cauterized part of the body has to a thin, delicate, and sensitive skin. Such a conscience exists in a mind that will practice delusion without concern; that will carry on a vast system of fraud without wincing; that will incarcerate, scourge, or burn the innocent without compassion; and that will practice gross enormities, and indulge in sensual gratifications under the mask of piety. While there are many eminent exceptions to an application of this to the Papal communion, yet this description will apply better to the Roman priesthood in the time of Luther - and in many other periods of the world - than to any other "body of men" that ever lived.
I instantly thought about the recent child molestation issues that the Roman Catholic church has been dealing with...hmmm...
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