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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 10/24/2010 7:51 AM (GMT -6)

Terrible.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/24/2010 8:42 AM (GMT -6)

I'm ignorant, here. Does the Koran address homosexuality? I'm guessing it must.

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 10/24/2010 9:04 AM (GMT -6)

It's as interesting and controversial a textual/hermeneutical topic for Muslims as it is for Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Islam

Regardless of the textual arguments, one finds homesexual relations practiced among Arab Muslims. I ran into it regularly in Iraq (among the Iraqis).

Tom

KIXYTΘEMTA

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/24/2010 9:32 AM (GMT -6)

I've since googled some of the Koran statements. The texts seem pretty clear unless there are other texts that contradict them with just as much clarity. The question is for professing Muslims, then, what it is for professing Christians: What does the seeming meaning of scriptural texts have to do with the defining of particular "faiths?" If nothing, then how do we define various "faiths" in a way such that we can recognize an adherent of a given faith when we run into one? Modernity (and post-modernity) is virtually rendering language meaningless in this regard, just it has for "constitutionality" and other related issues.

The fall-out is that all language necessarily becomes more and more meaningless, conventionally speaking. Because humans have no way of RATIONALLY deciding WHEN to apply induction to exegesis. It's either always or it's seemingly arbitrary. The passions of humanity trump their reason. And language is a casualty in that contest.

We are almost to the point where, when we say we're Christians/Muslims/etc, we need to give our own definition of that term so people have a clue what we even mean. I think this is what Asher was getting at, though I think Tom's point about the conventional uses of "unselfish" has validity just as does Asher's claim that modern political debate is systematically destroying older, conventional meanings of words.

What I think drives this is the fact that there is more to gain by professing a faith than actually meaning anything specific BY professing a faith. Thus, the temptation is to profess MERELY for the benefits thereof. And over time, as language become less and less conventional, we are constantly talking past one another and not even realizing it til we've wasted tons of time. And then it takes a long time to even get on the same page, linguistically, so we can start anew in a debate that might be fruitful.

This is why I wish tradition did not play such a strong role. It has the effect of determining who a heretic is prior to a debate about what putative, prophetic scriptures MEAN. And that can't be a good thing. That's what creates the temptation to MERELY profess.

Post Edited (Similitude) : 10/24/2010 9:46:22 AM (GMT-5)

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 10/24/2010 10:30 AM (GMT -6)

Similtude:
What I think drives this is the fact that there is more to gain by professing a faith than actually meaning anything specific BY professing a faith. Thus, the temptation is to profess MERELY for the benefits thereof. And over time, as language become less and less conventional, we are constantly talking past one another and not even realizing it til we've wasted tons of time. And then it takes a long time to even get on the same page, linguistically, so we can start anew in a debate that might be fruitful.

Hmmm...I've thought about how to really find a Christian. Here's my suggested question(s) to ask:

Do you believe that, by the power of God's Holy Spirit, the human being Jesus of Nazareth is currently...
1) risen from the dead and alive in God's Presence
2) exerting general rulership over all Creation

3) exerting personal rulership over your life (through empowered obedience to His commandments)

and...
4) living as a authentic, immutable personal presence inside of you as a believer?

I believe that if a person answered "yes" to all 4 things...I'd find it hard to say that the person wasn't a real Christian. Even if they didn't know

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 10/24/2010 10:38:13 AM (GMT-5)

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/24/2010 1:10 PM (GMT -6)

It's hard, though, for the phrase "of Nazareth" not to open up lots of historical questions and issues. That's the thing. This stuff is hard to do without dealing with lots of seeming implications. Obviously a person can be a Christian believing very little specifically. But to define a whole faith in terms of that little bit would be of little value. It doesn't even rule out murderers and rapists, per se.

Like I once told Zach, Christ said "why call ye me lord, lord and do not the things I say?" If we can't know what he said, what practical difference does it make that we believe he's our lord? But once we start to clarify HOW we know what he said, well here come all those other seeming historical implications.

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 10/28/2010 9:49 AM (GMT -6)

So what do you propose from a pluralistic perspective? I think the world would be better off without this kind of belief or behavior, but it doesn't appear that this going to go away anytime soon. For me there is the issue of tolerance.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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